PDA

View Full Version : Searching the Maqqeph in Hebrew



Gandalf
11-09-2007, 08:37 AM
Hello!
I'm trying to search a word with maqqepf (actually "lo-") but if I write the "-" WTM refuses to do the search. How can I include the maqqeph in the command line?
Thanks, :)

Philip Brown
11-09-2007, 11:41 PM
Hi, Gandalf,

As far as I know, it can't be done. The maqqef is not marked in the WTM by any code and BW does not regard it as a searchable character in the WTT.

David Kummerow
11-12-2007, 06:19 AM
See the first attached query which will retrieve instances of maqqef.

The second attached query will retrieve instaces of maqqef preceded by לא.

Regards,
David Kummerow.

Philip Brown
11-12-2007, 10:58 PM
I'm impressed, Dave! I had forgotten about the custom punctuation options in GSA.

Andrew Fincke
11-20-2007, 09:01 AM
I'm impressed, too.
But why not delete maqqefs from the display/print text? Take a look at what the experts in Israel have done. Go to www.mechon-mamre.org (http://www.mechon-mamre.org), and pop up one of their text-files, e.g. www.mechon-mamre.org/i/to8.htm (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/to8.htm) for 1 Samuel. They've kept the maqqefs out of respect and turned them into dashes and then added alot of unnecessary commas. Look, e.g., at 1 Sam 1:21: "Elkana, and-all of his house, to sacrifice", which would be alot nicer and simpler to read: "Elkana and all of his house to sacrifice". You're going to have a hard time waking up the snoozer in the front row with a sermon on maqqefs in 1 Samuel 1:21! By the way, the mechon text is alot more agreeable with the Sony e-book reader than cutting and pasting text from BW7 into a Word file and making a .pdf out of it. The BW7 text is too small to read, and the verses are separated by unnecessary line-breaks.
Andrew

Andrew Fincke
11-20-2007, 06:14 PM
Talked to the rabbi today, and he explained the matter of maqqefs. Contrary what was said in an earlier thread, they are part and parcel of cantillation and make no sense without cantillation. They join two words, the first of which has no independent function in the chanting. In the scroll read in the synagogue they don't exist, they don't exist in Dead Sea scrolls; and they are properly left out of text which doesn't claim to be a replication of the 1000 year old (happy birthday!) masoretic text of Ben Chayyim. For someone like me, for whom the vowels only serve as explanation to show how the Greek translators differed from the rabbis in reading unpointed Hebrew, the maqqefs are superfluous, and it bothers me to have to delete them.
Andrew

David Kummerow
11-21-2007, 01:46 AM
But why not delete maqqefs from the display/print text?

Hi Andrew,

I take it that you mean when you choose not to display accents and vowels in BW. If so, I agree with you: they should not display when accents and vowels are turned off. Similarly, sin and shin dots should not display, too.

Regards,
David.

Andrew Fincke
11-22-2007, 08:15 PM
Bingo! A word to the wise is sufficient
-A.

Andrew Fincke
11-22-2007, 10:47 PM
Although what in the world does this mean:
"Similarly, sin and shin dots should not display, too."
Since when are sin and shin dots cantillation? I'm just deleting musical notes, not the vowels.
-A.

David Kummerow
11-22-2007, 11:04 PM
Although what in the world does this mean:
"Similarly, sin and shin dots should not display, too."
Since when are sin and shin dots cantillation? I'm just deleting musical notes, not the vowels.
-A.
Sin and shin dots, like the vowels, accents, and dageshes, are the Masoretes' orthographic additions to the consonantal text. The orthographic letter ש actually represents two separate phonemes which the Masoretes chose to distinguish by the placement of the dots: שׂ and שׁ. I'm not saying the dots are cantillation, just that if cantillation and vowels are selected not to display, so shouldn't the dots.

Regards,
David Kummerow.

Adelphos
11-23-2007, 01:42 AM
Sin and shin dots, like the vowels, accents, and dageshes, are the Masoretes' orthographic additions to the consonantal text. The orthographic letter ש actually represents two separate phonemes which the Masoretes chose to distinguish by the placement of the dots: שׂ and שׁ. I'm not saying the dots are cantillation, just that if cantillation and vowels are selected not to display, so shouldn't the dots.

Gee wiz... next thing you know, you guys will be after the jots and tittles!!! :rolleyes:

David Kummerow
11-23-2007, 02:21 AM
Please note: I am not in any way making a statement as to the veracity of the Masoretic system. In reality, I prefer to work with it actually, and in my doctoral research on pronouns I am paying very close attention to the accentual system.

It's just that if one wants to display only the consonantal system minus the Masoretic additions that this cannot be done as yet. For cutting-and-pasting consonantal text into a document requiring that is a nuisance with BW since the maqqef and sin and shin dots remain.

Regards,
David Kummerow.

Andrew Fincke
11-25-2007, 08:47 AM
That's correct. But I want the cantillation not displayed, the vowels - including sin and shin dots - displayed. BTW, sin and shin are two different letters. Sin and samek are the same leter.
-A.

David Kummerow
11-25-2007, 03:50 PM
And I want to have the option not to display sin and shin dots.

I am not entirely sure what you mean by your use of "letter". Sure, sin and samek had probably merged phonetically by the time of the Masoretes, while sin and shin were distinct (is this what you mean by "letter"?). However, orthographically samek and sin/shin are different, while sin and shin are the same. The Masoretes chose, though, to disambiguate with the positioning of the dot.

Regards,
David Kummerow.

Glenn Weaver
11-26-2007, 10:39 AM
An option for removing the maqqefs and the other items mentioned in this thread is to export the WTT text, then use a text editor to search & replace on the text to make the character substitutions, then recompiled as another Hebrew text.

The instructions for how to recompile the text are in the Online Help. I won't be able to help on this right now, but other users on this forum would be able to guide you on the recompilation.

Blessings,
Glenn

David Kummerow
11-26-2007, 03:34 PM
Hi Glenn,

Thank you indeed for your suggestion. I will give this a go myself as I do quite a bit of copy-and-pasting where only the consonants are desired (minus sin and shin dots). I think this is a better solution than having to find-and-replace characters in Word all the time. It can get a little messy.

My opinion, though, is that this solution should be viewed as somewhat temporary in that I expect WTT to be able to optionally display only consonantal text and copy-and-paste as such. It is a rough hack to have to compile another version to accomplish this. Everything else can presently be removed and it's just maqqef and sin/shin dots that remain.

Thanks for your time and assistance.

David Kummerow.

Glenn Weaver
11-26-2007, 03:40 PM
Hi David,

I agree that it should be possible to make the changes you suggested, unless there are unforseen programming problems of which I am not aware.

But I mention this option because 1) I don't know how soon we could make the change, and 2) I don't think most users are aware how easy it is to tailor the texts to whatever they need through exporting, changing, and recompiling the texts. This would be an easy example of how to change the text to meet the needs of a specific task.

Blessings,
Glenn

David Kummerow
11-26-2007, 05:38 PM
Hi Glenn,

Yes, take your time. It's not a "must-have", esp. when this can be accomplished in the meantime as you've outlined. I'm happy if it's added to a list such as "things good to have a look at sometime in the future but aren't urgent".

In any case, I've compiled my own test version of Genesis: WTC ("C" for "consonantal"). See the attached. Of course there are still problems. For example, תובל קין in Gen 4:22 compiles as תובלקין. How can I export so that spaces remain is such examples?

Thanks,
David Kummerow.

David Kummerow
11-26-2007, 08:03 PM
Hi Glenn,
Of course there are still problems. For example, תובל קין in Gen 4:22 compiles as תובלקין. How can I export so that spaces remain is such examples?

OK, a little more detail on this. I have deselected "Remove Hebrew space-dots" under "Export Options" in the "Option Flags" "Options...".

The ccat text of this compound name in Gen 4:22 is exported as: )T-_TWBLQYN. I think this should be exporting as: )T-_TWBL QYN (or some varient thereof with the "space-dot" appearing). In any case, how might this be achieved?

Thanks,
David Kummerow.

Adelphos
11-26-2007, 09:56 PM
The ccat text of this compound name in Gen 4:22 is exported as: )T-_TWBLQYN. I think this should be exporting as: )T-_TWBL QYN (or some varient thereof with the "space-dot" appearing). In any case, how might this be achieved?

David, I have exported and recompiled a number of texts, but I haven't attempted what you want, so what I'm about to say is just a guess...

To wit, when all is said and done, I think you're ultimately going to have to do global replaces in your text file to get a clean text. Therefore, I wouldn't spend time trying to accomplish it from the export function in BW.

Rather, just export the text as is and then do global replacements...

As I said, this is just a guess, but I think in the end this will be the best solution.

David Kummerow
11-26-2007, 10:22 PM
Hi Scott,

Do you mean: export the text along with accents and vowels and then make relevant replacements?

Hmmm, that'll take some time, and it may be quicker to just make manual corrections to the (couple of hundred?) compound names that require a space but have been joined in exporting.

I think it would be good if the "export option" "Remove Hebrew space-dots" worked for what I have attempted to do.

Thanks,
David.

David Kummerow
11-26-2007, 11:05 PM
OK, task accomplished.

I exported WTT with accents and vowels. Then replaced ~ with ))))) (just to be safe!). Then compiled this new text. I then exported this text without accents and vowels. Then in this new text I replaced ))))) with a space. I also replaced $ and & with # and every -_ and - with a space. All this results in a text when compiled into BW is purely a consonantal text. Fantastic.

Regards,
David Kummerow.

Andrew Fincke
11-26-2007, 11:27 PM
Enough's enough. The guys at the company can make a macro in 1/2 hour to let us export what we want - cantillated, pointed text OR clean text OR half and half: pointed not cantillated either 1) pointed not cantillated with sin/shin dots;or 2) pointed not cantillated without sin/shin dots. Don't drive the users nuts!
Andrew Fincke

Adelphos
11-27-2007, 01:17 AM
OK, task accomplished.

I exported WTT with accents and vowels. Then replaced ~ with ))))) (just to be safe!). Then compiled this new text. I then exported this text without accents and vowels. Then in this new text I replaced ))))) with a space. I also replaced $ and & with # and every -_ and - with a space. All this results in a text when compiled into BW is purely a consonantal text. Fantastic.

Regards,
David Kummerow.

That's pretty much what I was suggesting. I just didn't know how much replacing it would take.

Anyway, now that you've got it, how about uploading here, or emailing it to me and I'll make it available on my site until Michael (hopefully) puts it on his blog.

David Kummerow
11-27-2007, 02:31 AM
Hi Scott,

I've uploaded here (http://home.exetel.com.au/galapo/wtc.zip) as the forum allowable file size is quite small.

Regards,
David.

Michael Hanel
11-27-2007, 09:08 AM
I've also made it available on our server. Unfortunately this is the last week of the quarter and next week is finals week, but hopefully in two weeks I'll be able to post a few more things on the blog (finally).

http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/version/wtc.zip

mike

Adelphos
11-27-2007, 10:34 AM
Thanks David and Michael. And David especially for the tedious work. And Michael, Godspeed on your finals.

David Kummerow
11-27-2007, 04:34 PM
I had to redo the version as I discovered a few errors (with the positioning of aleph and due to my ")))))" method).

Please grab the file again from here (http://home.exetel.com.au/galapo/wtc.zip).

@Michael
Are you interested in adding colorised Hebrew accents. The file is here (http://home.exetel.com.au/galapo/accents_colour.7z).

Regards,
David.

Michael Hanel
11-27-2007, 05:17 PM
I had to redo the version as I discovered a few errors (with the positioning of aleph and due to my ")))))" method).

Please grab the file again from here (http://home.exetel.com.au/galapo/wtc.zip).

@Michael
Are you interested in adding colorised Hebrew accents. The file is here (http://home.exetel.com.au/galapo/accents_colour.7z).

Regards,
David.

Yeah i will upload them both later tonight. The blog explanation for them will still have to wait a couple of weeks, but if you want to write up an explanation of what the coloring is for the blog, that would make my job easier :)

Michael Hanel
12-06-2007, 10:59 PM
Yeah i will upload them both later tonight. The blog explanation for them will still have to wait a couple of weeks, but if you want to write up an explanation of what the coloring is for the blog, that would make my job easier :)

...finally posted here: http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/2007/12/hebrew-accent-color-file-and.html