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vr8ce
05-22-2004, 04:59 PM
BW6.0.009o on W2KSP2.

Lately, double-clicking on Greek words in the NAU auto-info window has started showing entries from the OT and Apocrypha, in spite of the fact that BGT is not displayed and has never been displayed in the current session (since the program started). Tech support says this is a new "feature". If we didn't ask for it *and can't turn it off*, it's not a feature, it's a huge annoyance.

This is a request to get rid of this feature, or at the very least be able to turn it off. I *only* want the BGT searched when the BGT is displayed. 99.99% of the time I want Greek searches limited to the NT. In the .01%, I display BGT (and wouldn't you want the source displayed if you're searching it?).

PLEASE fix this sooner rather than later. I'm about to break out my Libronix, and you can't imagine how much I dislike Libronix. :-/

Vince

Philip Brown
05-22-2004, 05:12 PM
Hi, Vince,

All you have to do to limit finding words to the NT is type <l nt> on the command line, omitting the <>. This will limit the search to the NT, even when clicking on a Greek word in the NAU notes.

vr8ce
05-22-2004, 05:18 PM
Yes, thanks very much for the reply, but I probably should have mentioned I know how to use limits, etc. The point is, however, that should not be necessary. I don't want to have to turn on and turn off limits every I do a Greek search, and we shouldn't have to.

Vince


Hi, Vince,
All you have to do to limit finding words to the NT is type <l nt> on the command line, omitting the <>. This will limit the search to the NT, even when clicking on a Greek word in the NAU notes.

Gontroppo
05-22-2004, 06:38 PM
I can't see why it is a problem to get OT and Apocrypha hits with BGT and BGM, because they are databases of the OT/Ap/NT

The GNT and GNM are NT only sets.

Or, am I missing something?

However, yesterday, after searching the BGM, I switched to GNM and still kept getting OT references.

[Probably my mistake, though!]

David McKay

vr8ce
05-22-2004, 06:41 PM
Yes, you're missing that I didn't have BGT displayed. We should only get OT/Ap hits if BGT is displayed. It wasn't your mistake, you were still getting OT references, which is the point of the post. That program behavior is completely nonintuitive and extremely user unfriendly. BW normally hits home runs, but this is a double-play ball.

Vince


I can't see why it is a problem to get OT and Apocrypha hits with BGT and BGM, because they are databases of the OT/Ap/NT. The GNT and GNM are NT only sets. Or, am I missing something?

However, yesterday, after searching the BGM, I switched to GNM and still kept getting OT references. [Probably my mistake, though!]

David McKay

Philip Brown
05-22-2004, 07:01 PM
Personally, I can imagine someone complaining just the opposite way--that they want to be able to see every place a word occurs in Biblical Greek, not just in the NT when they click on a Greek word. And they don't want to have to wandering around in Tools | Options | Option Flags | etc to find the option that turns that setting on/off.

Limits, IMO, are the best way to handle both sets of desires.

vr8ce
05-22-2004, 07:25 PM
And those people have (or should have) an easy way to make that happen: by displaying the BGT. BW doesn't search the HNT when I double-click on a Hebrew word (no, there's no HNM for it to search, but it shouldn't do it even if there was, *unless* the HNT was displayed).

Nor did I say anything about burying something in Tools/Options/Options flags. But, since you brought it up, if something is needed other than the above, the *default* behavior should be an Option flag (which still wouldn't be changed on every search as you suggested). That is, if "Search BGT only if it's open" is checked, then the BGT is searched only if it's open; if it's unchecked, then the BGT is always searched. The people who like the latter uncheck it, the rest of us check it. But there's no way either group should have to resort to limits on *every* Greek search -- that's simply ludicrous, IMO.

Vince


Personally, I can imagine someone complaining just the opposite way--that they want to be able to see every place a word occurs in Biblical Greek, not just in the NT when they click on a Greek word. And they don't want to have to wandering around in Tools | Options | Option Flags | etc to find the option that turns that setting on/off.

Limits, IMO, are the best way to handle both sets of desires.

MBushell
05-24-2004, 11:50 PM
When you double-click on a Greek word in the NAS entry in the auto-info window, it will search based on the last Greek text searhed. If it was BGT, it will use BGT. I have tried it several times and it seems to work. However, if it doesn't, some of the other suggestions in this thread should handle it.

Mike

vr8ce
05-25-2004, 09:38 AM
OK, but what is "the last Greek text searched", and how do we determine it? I don't have BGT displayed; I haven't had BGT displayed for days. The only reason I can tell that it's the last Greek searched is because BW insists on searching it when I double-click in auto-info (a seemingly infinite loop) Is BW remembering the "last Greek searched" across multiple sessions (apparently)? What sets the last Greek text searched (I never search Greek directly; I do it via auto-info.) How do we fix this, i.e. how do I get it to not search the BGT?

The current behavior is very non-intuitive, Mike, and I have not been able to find anything about it in Help. This impacts people the most who know the least about original languages (like me); that's why I'm using auto-info to do the search. It really needs to be either documented a lot better, or preferably, made more intuitive in how it works.

Thanks,

Vince


When you double-click on a Greek word in the NAS entry in the auto-info window, it will search based on the last Greek text searhed. If it was BGT, it will use BGT. I have tried it several times and it seems to work. However, if it doesn't, some of the other suggestions in this thread should handle it.
Mike

Philip Brown
05-25-2004, 11:07 AM
Hi, Mike,


When you double-click on a Greek word in the NAS entry in the auto-info window, it will search based on the last Greek text searched.
Mike
I just searched .logoj in GNM. Mat. 5:32 is the first verse it finds. I moused over the NAU word 'adultery,' and then double clicked on moiceuw and the CL automatically switched to the BGM and did not search the GNM.

I also tried it with the BNM and same thing happened.

vr8ce
05-26-2004, 12:58 PM
As we've said (thanks for the confirmation, Philip), this isn't the way it's working, at least not always (for me, not ever). For example, I just double-clicked on anoetos in NAU's auto-info window for Titus 3:3. It changed the search version to BLM (why? I've *never* searched BLM), showed the Ap and OT occurrences of the word, but didn't even show the *NT* occurrences. So, in summary, I searched on a word in Titus, and the results didn't show me the word in Titus.

Mike, this isn't working the way you think. It's a major hindrance to my use of BW. The auto-info workings has been messed up since the 6.0 release, i.e. several months. I'm down on my knees (there's a song there somewhere), *please* fix this (and the other auto-info problem that support duplicated last week).

Vince


When you double-click on a Greek word in the NAS entry in the auto-info window, it will search based on the last Greek text searhed. If it was BGT, it will use BGT. I have tried it several times and it seems to work. However, if it doesn't, some of the other suggestions in this thread should handle it.
Mike

Joe Fleener
05-26-2004, 01:46 PM
I am not seeing the same thing here. Although it does not seem to search the last Greek version searched:

Here are my steps:

1. I typed GNM on the command line.

2. I searchd on .sarx

3. I went to Titus 3:3 from the command line.

4. With my search version still showing as GNM I moused over the NAU and the double clicked on avno,htoj in the AI window.

My search version was changed to BNM. Now the BNM does not contain the OT, so I only received NT results.

I have tried this several different ways and everytime it seems to change my search version to BNM which does not contain the OT.

vr8ce
05-27-2004, 04:56 PM
I am not seeing the same thing here. Although it does not seem to search the last Greek version searched:
...


Yes, that's part of the challenge. I have another auto-info problem that has existed since 6.0 was released that I've reported here twice, and reported to support last week. Support was able to duplicate it, but in their words "not on every computer". So whatever is going on in both cases has some parameters we're not aware of.

Nevertheless, you do confirm what Peter and I have both determined: this isn't working the way Mike thinks it is. :)

Vince

P.S. -- In case it isn't clear, I love BW, and find it incredible what Mike and company have been able to accomplish, and know that there are LOTS of things on the to-do list. My urgency is due to these two auto-info problems (this one and another one) being a key part of how I use BW. Their being broken has greatly impacted my productivity with it, and this has been going on for months. As much as I love seeing cross-references in the auto-info BDAG (and in fact was one of the ones that requested them), I'd *much* rather see these problems fixed than any more new things added.

Charlie
05-27-2004, 05:02 PM
I am not able to find a problem with this here. When I double click a Greek word in the AIW BibleWorks searches the last Greek version I searched. I tried it with BGT/M, GNT/M, BNT/M and it seems to work fine. Anyone able to describe how to duplicate the problem?

By the way, this is a new feature in BibleWorks 6. In previous versions it would always search the GNM. I personally suggested the change because often when I'm studying a NT passage I want to see how a word in used anywhere in the Greek OT and NT. Many other users also asked for this. I understand the frustration if it's not working this way on your system, but if it works as I just described it's really very simple.

For example, if you are in the NT and you want to make sure all AIW searches are NT only (and earlier you had searched the Greek OT), first double click a word in whatever version of the Greek NT you have displayed. Then when you mouse over a translation and double click a word in the AIW you'll only get NT hits.

Charlie

Philip Brown
05-27-2004, 09:57 PM
For example, if you are in the NT and you want to make sure all AIW searches are NT only (and earlier you had searched the Greek OT), first double click a word in whatever version of the Greek NT you have displayed. Then when you mouse over a translation and double click a word in the AIW you'll only get NT hits.
Charlie
Hi, Charlie,

Here is where the bug lies:
0. Last Greek search in BGT (either from CL or by dbl-clckng in RW)
1. Type BNM on CL to switch to morph version
2. Do a CL search in BNM for .moiceuw
3. At Mat. 5:27 mouse over NAU 'heard'
4. Double click akouw in AIW.
5. The search will be done in the BGM instead of the BNM, which was the last Greek version searched.

Conclusion: The "last Greek version searched" setting is not retaining CL morphology version switches.

I reversed the above test
0. Last Greek search in BNT for .moiceuw
1. Type BGM on CL
2. Do a CL search in BGM for .enocoj
3. Click on Mat. 5:21 and mouse over MURDER in NAU
4. Double click foneu,w in AIW
5. The Search will be done in the BNM instead of the BGM, which was the last Greek version searched.

Further: I started BW with a clean .ini file. Chose Power User mode. Added NAU to RW. Typed Mat 1.1 on CL. Moused over 'genealogy'; double-clicked on ge,nesij in the AIW, and the BLM was the default search version.

Frankly, I was surprised I expected the default to be BGM.

Suggestion: Add a pop-up note the first time someone does a Greek search in the AIW that informs them how to limit their search. It could even say something like: Last Greek version searched was XXX. For help on limiting or changing Greek version searched from AIW, see AIW Greek Searching (AIW Greek Searching)-- where the link would take the person to the correct location in the help file.

Let me know if you can't duplicate these steps.

vr8ce
05-28-2004, 12:44 PM
Philip has already indicated how to reproduce it, and already indicated that from a clean installation, with only NAU displayed, that it doesn't work, which is *my* big frustration.

I'll suggest again that this should be "clearable", i.e. should be reset if there is no Greek testament displayed. The odds of someone wanting the LXX searched for Greek when no Greek (including the LXX) is displayed are, I would think, extremely small. The majority (I believe) of us only want the NT searched when no Greek is displayed. If someone has to do something different here, I think it should be minority, not the majority. :)

Even with that change, however, whatever is causing BW to search the wrong thing still needs to be addressed, once you get it duplicated.

Thanks,

Vince


... Anyone able to describe how to duplicate the problem?
...
For example, if you are in the NT and you want to make sure all AIW searches are NT only (and earlier you had searched the Greek OT), first double click a word in whatever version of the Greek NT you have displayed. Then when you mouse over a translation and double click a word in the AIW you'll only get NT hits.

Charlie

almather
05-28-2004, 09:20 PM
This thread got me curious, so I started to play with the NAU notes. I have open NAU, bgt, bgm, with bgm as the search version. Having moused over a word in nau, I can not get bw's to search a greek word from the aiw. Each time it will default to NAU and I get a note saying that 'the following word or form can not be found in the current search version. I can search the English words listed in the aiw. I have tried this with several combinations of versions and have had NO success regarding seaching a Greek word in aiw from the NAU notes, I always get the message mentioned above.

Al

vr8ce
05-29-2004, 12:01 PM
This thread got me curious, so I started to play with the NAU notes. I have open NAU, bgt, bgm, with bgm as the search version. Having moused over a word in nau, I can not get bw's to search a greek word from the aiw. Each time it will default to NAU and I get a note saying that 'the following word or form can not be found in the current search version.
...
Al

Are you sure you're double-clicking on the Greek word? In the NAU's AIW, the first line of display looks something like:
<4103> <Greek> pistos
where <Greek> is the actual Greek form of the word (Greek font, which I don't know how to get in a message here), and pistos is the transliterated English form of the Greek. Double-clicking on the transliterated Greek, i.e. "pistos" above, which I forget and do occasionally, always gets the above message. Double-clicking on the Greek does the search.

Predictably, I can't duplicate what you indicate above, but given the other messages in this thread, that doesn't necessarily mean it's working. :) Something is definitely hosed in AIW processing in BW6; frankly, I'd rather lose the ability to search OT Greek completely than continue to operate the way this is. I may try to dig up my BW5 CD's...

Vince

almather
05-29-2004, 01:36 PM
Oh you mean the bold greek word! Yes, that words fine. I realized after reading this post that I was clicking on the transliteration.

Yes, it seems to be working just fine, thank you.

Thanks.

Al

Charlie
06-04-2004, 03:55 PM
Hey everyone, A new exe was just posted for this bug. The post is found here (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1084&postcount=1). Please don't assume from this that we will always be able to fix anything that is reported in just a few days. Often issues must be moved to the back burner for reasons that are too numerous to detail.

Charlie