PDA

View Full Version : Hebrew Massorah



Michael Hanel
07-19-2006, 05:26 PM
This is a note especially for those Hebrew guys out there:

I know many of the Hebrew specialists out there have been feeling down that there are not as many Hebrew resources as they would like. Well if that's you, this might be something you can help out with. Part of the way users can help each other out is through creating user add-on modules. I have been spending hundreds of hours the past few years producing Greek-related user modules because that's my primary interest. Others have done work which preceded my own and they helped create the first Apostolic Fathers module (in Greek and translation) before any other Bible program had even touched this.

In the past many of these projects have been headed by one or two people, but there are some projects out there that require many more hands to make them possible. This is the project I am introducing now.

Is there any support for a creation of Ginsburg's Massorah into a BibleWorks module? This would be a project that would take as many volunteers as possible in order to divide the workload (which would be rather impossible for one person). There are online PDF versions of the Ginsburg Massorah. (http://www.seforimonline.org/seforim3.html) The project would be to turn the PDFs into text files which would then be compiled into an user add-on module. If it were done in this form, all the information contained in the Massorah would be provided via the Resource Summary like any of the other Grammars or Lexicons (meaning verse references would work, etc.). This would be a massive project, but with a group of volunteers, it would be possible.

Right now I am looking for feedback. Are there any of you Hebrew students out there who would be interested in making this happen? If there's not enough interest, it won't get done. Leave a note on the forums and let's see if we can't make this happen.

Adelphos
07-19-2006, 06:30 PM
Right now I am looking for feedback. Are there any of you Hebrew students out there who would be interested in making this happen? If there's not enough interest, it won't get done. Leave a note on the forums and let's see if we can't make this happen.

Like you said, it is a MASSIVE understaking, however, I would be willing to participate IF enough people sign on. Otherwise, the project would simply be too overwhelming.

Also, if we're going to produce this for BibleWorks, then I think it only fair that the BW folks make themselves available to lend a hand with certain issues, such as perhaps writing an algorithim or two, if needed. We'll just have to flesh that out, but I do think an official BW hand would be necessary to make this project really work.

So, count me in, at least tentatively. :cool:

Michael Hanel
07-19-2006, 06:41 PM
Like you said, it is a MASSIVE understaking, however, I would be willing to participate IF enough people sign on. Otherwise, the project would simply be too overwhelming.

Also, if we're going to produce this for BibleWorks, then I think it only fair that the BW folks make themselves available to lend a hand with certain issues, such as perhaps writing an algorithim or two, if needed. We'll just have to flesh that out, but I do think an official BW hand would be necessary to make this project really work.

So, count me in, at least tentatively. :cool:

I cannot speak for BW staff obviously, but it's also true there are some very computer savvy BW users out there who hopefully could lend out a hand in some nice computer-geek way. Anyway, the point for right now is seeing if there is human labor to do the work. This would not be a BW-sanctioned activity per-se. It will be a free module done by users, available for other users just like the others.

Anyway, I surely don't have answers to these questions, but this is sure open for discussion by other users to see if this can be attempted. If it can't, it can't, no big deal, but it'd sure be cool if it could :)

So if people know of ways to make this a more manageable project please add those thoughts here too! Every comment is welcome.

Michael Hanel
07-19-2006, 06:49 PM
This would be a taste of how this would work. Unzip the attached file and put it in your Bibleworks subdirectory called "databases" (by the way I know this works in BW7, I do not know if this works in earlier versions). Restart BW7. You will then notice the Massorah is available in your Resources column. Also whenever you hit a verse that is in the module, it will show up in the Resource Summary window. Check it out. Get excited and volunteer to help this out :)

Michael Hanel
07-19-2006, 07:08 PM
Simply by glancing through a volume I have at least one idea how the project could be divided (note, no matter how you cut it, it will still be tedious).

If there were a user (this one doesn't even have to be a hebrew student) who would follow an entry/page or two of the Massorah that person would type in verse references (translated into BW format (i.e. ditch the roman numerals, standardize book names)). This person would use this list s/he has typed to create a Verse list.

A second user would then receive the verse list and then it's easy work to go from verse A to B to C, click, click click on the pre-loaded verse-list. This user's task would be to copy the equivalent of the Hebrew word recorded on the PDF into what will be the working text document for the Massorah. This way there is no typing of Hebrew required. It is simply copy Word from verse into text document.

Note there would likely be a snag here or there (perhaps a word doesn't match up with the PDF or something). These would have to be resolved and could be marked such for a temporary duration.

Then after this portion is done there would have to be more file-editing required on the back end to compile this.



So anyway, that's my first rough draft of a game plan to work this puppy. Do those steps sound reasonable and/or achievable? Would any one else have better ideas/methods?

Jonhenry
07-19-2006, 10:20 PM
W - O - W ! ! !

Michael Hanel
07-19-2006, 10:29 PM
W - O - W ! ! !

No, you have to save that for celebration of the actual accomplishment. This is merely scouting the waters.

Jonhenry
07-20-2006, 01:44 PM
Wow. . .that is with regards to both the opportunity abd the task!

Jonhenry
07-20-2006, 06:10 PM
I'm curious (not having had experience in the module-building business) if a PDF --> HTML (or HTM...or even RTF) batch converter would speed things up? I've seen these. Could that take away some of the tedium of the task?

I'd like to know. I also have some other things I want to make into modules. For instance, expired copywrite commentaries (Westcott, Hort, Eadie, Lightfoot, etc., available as PDFs).

[I also have a PDF of Robertson's Grammar, but I understand that's turning into a module at the BW headquarters]

Michael Hanel
07-20-2006, 06:16 PM
I'm curious (not having had experience in the module-building business) if a PDF --> HTML (or HTM...or even RTF) batch converter would speed things up? I've seen these. Could that take away some of the tedium of the task?

I'd like to know. I also have some other things I want to make into modules. For instance, expired copywrite commentaries (Westcott, Hort, Eadie, Lightfoot, etc., available as PDFs).



I welcome answers from others, but my personal knowledge is that there is no quick way to go from PDF to HTML or any other format. There are programs to copy Latin font PDF's I believe, but the Massorah would not be an option for this at all obviously. Of course I'd love to be corrected :) Especially in this case the PDFs are not documents that were turned into PDF format, but document images joined together into PDF format. Perhaps it is possible to go from document PDF to some other format, but I don't think an image PDF could do that. At best it would require some kind of OCR software and I dont believe the image quality on the Massorah is good enough that any OCR software would do much good. Check out CCEL for instance on how they go from images/PDFs to the ThML

Ewan MacLeod
07-21-2006, 05:36 AM
Michael is right - there is no way to convert the PDF to HTML, unless you use OCR software. But that will work badly with the small text sizes and Hebrew, so it wil be easier to just type the text in. Converters that go from PDF to HTML only work if the PDF has embedded text, which is not the case here.

I developed the sample Ginsburg module, so I can do all the technical/difficult bits involved in actually creating the Module file. It just needs volunteers to type in the text as far as possible. I could do any tidy ups, and work involved in getting the text into exactly the right HTML format, if people found that difficult. So potentially, volunteers just need to enter the text. It would work in a similar way to Michael's suggestion.

This would be a major undertaking, but along the way you would learn a truly immense amount about the Massorah, and how it worked across the 70 or so manuscripts that Ginsburg collated. There is no way you will learn that information any other way. Even if we had to stop part way through due to lack of time or volunteers, the progress up until that point would still be beneficial.

Michael Hanel
07-21-2006, 11:27 PM
Well I'm not seeing much interest yet. If someone does want to experiment with this, go through a section in the PDF's. See how long it takes you to put together a verse list, i.e. how many pages can you do in half an hour or an hour. If someone does something it might make this seem more achievable rather than simply talking about it.

Ben Spackman
07-22-2006, 12:38 AM
As one of the heavy Hebrew/Aramaic users, I'd much prefer to see effort channeled into something other than this. I just wouldn't use it much. Inscriptions, yes. Mishnah, yes. Massorah, no.

Michael Hanel
07-22-2006, 01:06 AM
As one of the heavy Hebrew/Aramaic users, I'd much prefer to see effort channeled into something other than this. I just wouldn't use it much. Inscriptions, yes. Mishnah, yes. Massorah, no.

Find a source for something productive and let 'er go then. I'm just offering ideas :)

Ben Spackman
07-22-2006, 01:16 AM
I know, and I appreciate it. We started work a while back on a inscriptions database, but it never took off. We had trouble compiling the Hebrew, among other things.

Adelphos
07-24-2006, 11:56 AM
This would be a major undertaking, but along the way you would learn a truly immense amount about the Massorah, and how it worked across the 70 or so manuscripts that Ginsburg collated. There is no way you will learn that information any other way. Even if we had to stop part way through due to lack of time or volunteers, the progress up until that point would still be beneficial.

I just installed your module and I think it's tremendous.

Of course, the Massorah is a lost art today, and that's a shame, for it is not really possible to translate the Tanach without it, at least not accurately. Case in point --

Most modern bibles follow the KJV in Psalm 22:16 (17) -- "they pierced my hands and feet"

How many times have you heard the translators of modern bibles and modern Hebrew scholars assert that the KJV translators must have engaged in metaphor or some such device in order to arrive at this rendering, because, as we all know, the Kethib just doesn't read that way literally?

Well, the KJV translators were not only masters in the rabbinic literature, but they were absolute masters of the Massorah as well, and the reason they translated the above passage the way they did has nothing whatsoever to do with metaphor.

Rather, the reason the KJV translators rendered the above passage the way they did is because the Massorah dictated that they do so.

Ad infinitum throughout the Old Testament.

So the Massorah has a profound impact on the translation and meaning of the Old Testament, and the Ginsburg module, albeit not identical to the Massorah of the 16th and 17th centuries, if nevertheless brought to fruition, would be an absolutely outstanding contribution to BibleWorks.

IF we can get enough people to assist. Otherwise, the task would be far too difficult.

Oh, by the way, for those who are curious, don't consult the Massorah Magna at Psalm 22:16 (17) for a commentary on how to render the above passage, for the Massorah Magna doesn't discuss it there. The Massorah discusses this rendering in a place in Numbers and Isaiah, which is why it is fortunate for us that the old-timers were masters in this discipline.

So the next time somebody "corrects" the old translations, ask them what the Massorah says about their "correction" and then watch the blank look appear on their faces.

I think anyone out there who might be considering pursuing a doctorate in biblical Hebrew would find Massoretic studies to be a wide open field, and one very much worth pursuing.

In any event, I do hope we can find enough support to get Ginsburg's Massorah into BibleWorks, for the Massorah is an invaluable tool in correctly understanding the Old Testament.

Philip Brown
07-25-2006, 12:05 AM
Hi, Scott,

Your post sparked my curiosity. I was reading Prov. 19 in Hebrew this week and came across what struck me as a radical difference between the MT and the KJV

KJV: Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

MT: Discipline your son while there is hope, And to his death do not lift up your soul (do not desire his death).

I haven't been able to find any explanation for the KJV's translation. Is there a Massorah explanation for this as well?

Adelphos
07-25-2006, 01:10 AM
I haven't been able to find any explanation for the KJV's translation. Is there a Massorah explanation for this as well?

Don't know. Just got a new computer with XP. Don't even have BW or the fonts installed yet. Just testing the internet connection. And I've got a whole night ahead of me just to get the basics installed, i.e., email, necessary programs, etc. ;)

However, I suspect it is probably not a Massoretic situation here (I could very well be wrong), but rather either a plain textual matter or perhaps even a translational matter.

I also don't know what you mean when you say MT, for the MT you refer to may not be the MT that the Renaissance translators employed. If memory serves, the KJV translators had a minimum of 14 Hebrew texts before them, including the Bomberg editions, as well as numerous others.

Having said all that, judging from the KJV notes it could be something as simple as translation, for the KJV translators' notes say --

"or to his destruction; or, to cause him to die."

As one relatively recent (?) study by the linguists and literary scholars Alter, Kermode, and other participants remarked, none of whom could even remotely be considered KJVO's, and giving their examples primarily from the Hebrew Tanach, with respect to the translators of the KJV and their attempting to open out the meaning as much as possible, wrote (and I must be a little long to really explain it)--

"All these examples can be seen to have doctrinal or theological implications, but they also have one distinct literary implication: that the Authorized Version's translators were artful, and, in the best Renaissance sense, witty, contriving to make what they wrote have a variety of meanings. In their view the translator's task was not to assume that there is one clear meaning to which the text should be reduced, but instead to open out the text to include as much as possible... Many modern versions eschew anything which smacks of imagery or metaphor... The loss is measurable not only in terms of aesthetics but also in terms of meaning. Particularly in the narrative sections of the Bible the Authorized Version emerges from comparison with twentieth-century versions as more attractive and more accurate... the Authorized Version has the kind of transparency which makes it possible for the reader to see the original clearly. It lacks the narrow interpretive bias of modern versions, and is the stronger for it... Through its transparency the reader of the Authorized Version not only sees the original but also learns how to read it. Patterns of repetitions, the way one clause is linked to another, the effect of unexpected inversions of word order, the readiness of biblical writers to vary tone and register from the highly formal to the scatological, and the different kinds and uses of imagery are all, like so much else, open to any readers of the Renaissance versions, and best open to them in the Authorized Version." The Literary Guide To The Bible, Robert Alter & Frank Kermode, The Belknap Press Of Harvard University Press, 1987, pgs 663 - 665.

Had to be that long to let you know that I suspect that's what's going on in Proverbs here, and as I said, those boys, Alter and Kermode and Gerald Hammond, who authored that particular section, concentrated almost wholly on the Old Testament when penning those words, so that's what those comments apply to.

What are you doing reading Proverbs anyway? Trying to get wise or something? :cool:

MWMiles
12-25-2006, 10:29 PM
This would be a taste of how this would work. Unzip the attached file and put it in your Bibleworks subdirectory called "databases" (by the way I know this works in BW7, I do not know if this works in earlier versions). Restart BW7. You will then notice the Massorah is available in your Resources column. Also whenever you hit a verse that is in the module, it will show up in the Resource Summary window. Check it out. Get excited and volunteer to help this out :)

I can think of no other work that would hold as much value to a Christian looking to deeply study God's Word than Ginsburg's collation of the Massorah. It is, quite literally, a fence to the Scriptures and is vastly important to anyone that cares about the preservation of our Father's Word and it's correct meaning; to both those teaching and those being taught. It is a superlative work that is underused due to it's limited availability in printed format (I am blessed to own it), and to have it in the premier Bible Study software would be like a crown jewel in Biblical works made available to Bibleworks users. It's inclusion in Bibleworks will be a blessing much greater than I believe that most people will fathom at first look. I consider the Massorah to be PART OF the Old Testament and this work should be a front burner consideration for those that are able to produce such things.

Is any progress being made?

The sample is of quite fine quality! :)

Michael Hanel
12-28-2006, 01:55 AM
Is any progress being made?



To my knowledge nothing is being done on this particular project. The only other Hebrew language family project that has been brought up has been a Northwest Semitic one and info on that is here (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2101).

ugotdave
02-10-2007, 02:31 PM
All -

I work for a scanning/imaging and data mining software company, we have several programs that are excellent at converting paper documents into searchable pdf's as well as mining through the data and extracting all pertinent metadata, including the body text, and writing it to a sql back-end. The challenge here is to take the existing pdf files and convert them into a searchable pdf, meaning OCR the images in the pdf to actual text.

I looked at the pdf's from the Seforim website, they are in fairly bad condition for OCR'ing, but not a hopeless case. It's quite possible to OCR them. I can only promise to give it a shot next week and keep you posted on my progress.

If this fails, is there any way to get an actual copy of the Ginsburg Massorah?

Michael, I tried the module you complied, but it failed to show up. I am running BW 6.0.012y. I looked for it in the "Resources" column on the menu bar, but did not see it in there. Is this where it is suppose to be?

Michael Hanel
02-10-2007, 03:27 PM
Michael, I tried the module you complied, but it failed to show up. I am running BW 6.0.012y. I looked for it in the "Resources" column on the menu bar, but did not see it in there. Is this were it is suppose to be?


If you copied all the files to the subdirectory "databases" it should show up in your Resources list. If it doesn't, I'm not sure what would have gone wrong...

ugotdave
02-10-2007, 04:28 PM
Michael,

I am not sure what went wrong either. I unzipped the file and copied Ginsburg's-Massorah.chd, Ginsburg's-Massorah.chm, and Ginsburg's-Massorah.sdx into the 'databases' directory. I launched BW and nothing. I rebooted, still nothing. I did the entire procedure over again and nothing.

You did mention that it was not tested on BW 6, so maybe BW 6 is causing some issues...

Do you know if it's still possible to get a copy of Ginsburg's work?

Michael Hanel
02-10-2007, 04:54 PM
Michael,

I am not sure what went wrong either. I unzipped the file and copied Ginsburg's-Massorah.chd, Ginsburg's-Massorah.chm, and Ginsburg's-Massorah.sdx into the 'databases' directory. I launched BW and nothing. I rebooted, still nothing. I did the entire procedure over again and nothing.

You did mention that it was not tested on BW 6, so maybe BW 6 is causing some issues...

Do you know if it's still possible to get a copy of Ginsburg's work?


Ah, that would be the problem. I'm pretty sure these add-on modules do not work in BW6, it is one of the perks of BW7.

Re: getting a copy of Ginsburg's book. It would be possible to find it at a major library, but I don't think it is readily available elsewhere.

ugotdave
02-11-2007, 01:14 AM
Pasquale,

Do you have the Massorah on pdf?

If so, are they better quality then the ones on the Seforim website?

Eric
02-11-2007, 02:35 PM
I don't know if he would be willing to share it for this purpose, but MWMiles says that he has a printed copy of the Massorah.


I can think of no other work that would hold as much value to a Christian looking to deeply study God's Word than Ginsburg's collation of the Massorah. It is, quite literally, a fence to the Scriptures and is vastly important to anyone that cares about the preservation of our Father's Word and it's correct meaning; to both those teaching and those being taught. It is a superlative work that is underused due to it's limited availability in printed format (I am blessed to own it), and to have it in the premier Bible Study software would be like a crown jewel in Biblical works made available to Bibleworks users. It's inclusion in Bibleworks will be a blessing much greater than I believe that most people will fathom at first look. I consider the Massorah to be PART OF the Old Testament and this work should be a front burner consideration for those that are able to produce such things.

Is any progress being made?

The sample is of quite fine quality! :)

Ivo Fasiori
02-12-2007, 10:19 AM
I don't know if my files are better then Seforim online.
There are 4 vol.
1) The Massorah Vol. 1 of 4 - Aleph-Yod - Christian D. Ginsburg Compiler - 1880 - London.pdf;(about 54 mega)
2) The Massorah Vol. 2 of 4 - Caph-Tav. - Compiled by Christian D. Ginsburg - 1880 - London.pdf; (about 60 mega)
3) The Massorah Vol. 3 of 4 - Supplement - Compiled by Christian D. Ginsburg - 1885 - London.pdf; (I don't have this file).
4) The Massorah Vol. 4 of 4 - Explanatory Aleph - Compiled by Christian D. Ginsburg - 1905 - London.pdf. (about 100 mega)

Probabily are the same files on Seforim (6 pdf files) joined in 4 pdf!!!!

PS. Perhaps it would be the software: DAGESH PRO OCR or Readiris 11 to edit Massorah

Pasquale,

It seems your files are from the following site:
http://www.ericlevy.com/Revel/Revel_C_D_Ginsburg.htm

For doing OCR on Hebrew texts you need Daghesh, Ligature or
another HEBREW OCR software!

Greetings :rolleyes:

Ivo

ugotdave
02-12-2007, 08:08 PM
Well, I struck out with the OCR'ing. Even if I had a good clean copy, our OCR engine does not have a Hebrew Character Set built in. Degesh OCR Pro does, but we still don't have good clean images to OCR from and it runs several hundred dollars.

I am going to start hand typing the first PDF's from the Seforim website, it's a start.

Any suggestions on which word processor to use?
And does the text need to be identically to Ginsburg 's format?

MWMiles
02-12-2007, 09:48 PM
And does the text need to be identically to Ginsburg 's format?

You're going to come to find that the font that BibleWorks utilizes doesn't reproduce several characters in the Massorah, all of which are critical if you take the Massorah as serious as those that produced it did.

For example, BibleWorks has no inverted nun (as far as I can recollect). The last time that I checked the font that BibleWorks uses, there are no majestics (crowned characters) either. At one time I was of the mind to reproduce the Massorah using the BibleWorks fonts and hit the wall because of these issues.

It may prove to be better if you could find the odd characters and submit them to the correct person at BibleWorks so that these characters could be built into their font and would be readily available as you work. If BibleWorks shows any interest in furthering having Ginsburg's Massorah available in BibleWorks format by adding to their Hebrew font, then that would be great. It might spark my interest in pitching in between other projects that I'm currently engaged in.

This is just a suggestion, as you're doing the work and I'm not.

Jonhenry
02-13-2007, 04:37 PM
BibleWorks fonts are licensed from the SBL, if I'm not mistaken (that's what the SBL site states, anyway). You might see if the SBL has the correct characters in their font foundation. If so, it would probably be much easier to add the characters to BW. If the characters do not exist in that data set, I am not so sure that this project will happen.

Philip Brown
02-14-2007, 09:28 AM
Just a note of clarification. The fonts in BibleWorks that begin with Bw (Bwhebb, Bwhebl, bwgrkl, etc.) were created by BibleWorks, not SBL. Only the font "SBL Hebrew" or other SP-prefixed fonts are SBL licensed.

Also, Bwhebb does contain the inverted nun. Type Alt + 0382 to get it. It does not contain crowned letters.

ugotdave
02-19-2007, 08:41 AM
All,

I am still pursuing this quest to copy Ginsburg's work, although purchasing a copy of Ginsburg's work is possible, $$$$$$, it's not probable for me economically.
I have a local Christian college checking it's resources to obtain a copy. They located 3 such copies, but I am not certain that they will be able to "reel the catch in".

Again, does anyone have any suggestions on a specific Hebrew Word Processor to use for this daunting project.

I was also reading in the forum and found that the SBL Hebrew font should work for recreating the Massorah, it has the inverted 'Nun' and some of the other characters needed.
Has anyone used this font, and what's your opinion on its use for this project?

Any tips, tricks, suggestions, or real life experiences are welcome to help me out with this task. Please feel free to send me an email or post them in the forum.

Thanks,

David Morris

P.S. If there are others who want to join in on this huge project, please feel free!
As a team we can accomplish this task! I am only one man, and I am willing to go it alone if I have to. That's how much I believe in this work.

MWMiles
02-19-2007, 08:54 PM
P.S. If there are others who want to join in on this huge project, please feel free!
As a team we can accomplish this task! I am only one man, and I am willing to go it alone if I have to. That's how much I believe in this work.

I'm working on some sources for material. It's been literally years since I explored the idea of an electronic version of Ginsburg's collation of the Massorah. I believe that Windows 98 was all the rage back then.. :D

I very strongly believe in the value of this work and would love to see something done with it. I was made aware of the value of the work years ago and I consider it a great shame that it is not freely available - not just in BibleWorks.

I personally would be of the mind at first glance to use a font that has no licensing restrictions and that would be open for additions and/or changes, even if that means taking an open source or public domain Hebrew font and doing some work on it. You're going to need to make changes and additions to the font as you work and the license for the SBL font may not allow that. OTOH, you could use the SBL font for most of the work, and make another font with all of the odd characters and letters. Have you contacted BibleWorks about using their font? They seem to be rather easy going about sharing that resource - at least they have been so in the past.

Adelphos
02-20-2007, 04:04 PM
...Again, does anyone have any suggestions on a specific Hebrew Word Processor to use for this daunting project.

David,

I've tried Nota Bene, Word, and a few other word processors and I find Davka Writer to be far and away head and shoulders above them all.

The link is http://www.davkawriter.com/index.html

With Davka you can with a mere keystroke switch between Hebrew and English and have the formatting perfectly preserved.

With a mere keystroke you switch to left-right/right-left and have the formatting perfectly preserved.

I could go on and on. Nothing I've seen even comes remotely close to Davka's Hebrew and English capabilities.

The only drawback with Davka is they have continued to make their fonts proprietary. They are apparently too paranoid to understand that this only harms them in the long run.

However, their latest version appears to be fully compatible with unicode, so the font issue is not really an issue.

That aside, their program greatly facilitates Hebrew and English typing, and as I said, far, far better than anything else I've seen.

MWMiles
02-21-2007, 02:15 PM
post removed

Michael Hanel
02-21-2007, 02:59 PM
Sounds like an exciting prospect! I look forward to hearing more about it and good luck getting people together to help out. You might try dropping word at some other Bible-related blogs to see if you can get any other volunteers.

MWMiles
02-24-2007, 12:55 AM
post removed

MWMiles
03-11-2007, 01:52 PM
post removed

Clint Yale
03-11-2007, 09:24 PM
:) I read with interest posts on creating an electronic edition of Ginsburg. I have a few questions.
How well is the OCR software you are using picking up the Hebrew characters?
What percentage of the page is German and what percentage is Hebrew?

OmniPage Pro will pick up the German at about a 99% accuracy rate. You will have to have crate a cut and paste sheet for the letters with umlauts that the OCR fails to pick up. The great thing about OCR is that it preserves the commas, periods, brackets parenthesis on each page. I would scan two pages at a time and then put them al together in several sections or by each book. I would not let your word processor do the pagination. Put the page numbers in manually by a tag.
If your accuracy rate is low then you will need to bone up on your typing skills and rapid Hebrew reading.
I have learned using Omnipage Pro in various versions that about the best output you will receive is a txt.file that will need more typing than you will care to hear about. Until Unicode has all the characters you need to do this project I would opt for the Ascii equivalents and then place characters that have no equivalents in sgml tags. How do I know this I typed out the two volumes of Tischendorf's Critical Apparatus, I have scanned, typed and proofed Gregory's TEXTKRITIK and am presently working on von Soden's critical apparatus. About 7500 pages of type-challenged text.
That is my 2 cents for now.
Clint Yale
Bellingham,WA

MWMiles
03-12-2007, 04:20 AM
post removed

MWMiles
03-12-2007, 08:53 PM
post removed

Gaius
05-30-2007, 02:03 PM
As one can imagine, a project of this size and scope is no mere 2-3 weekend blast out. We're still going over what is going to constitute the best methodology to transform the whole of the 4 volumes of Ginsburg's Massorah into searchable electronic text.

We have the font issues to deal with (several letters with odd characteristics), output formats to decide on (we don't want to lock out people running Linux, BSD, or Solaris, etc.) and other nits to swat.

We are progressing slowly, but we are indeed progressing. :)

If anyone reading this cares to perhaps lend a hand please contact me at michael AT massorah.org or get ahold of David at david AT massorah.org. Who knows, maybe you can have a massorah.org email account to play with too! ;)

Hello, Michael...

I had a look at the "massorah.org" - there is just a title page of the Ginsburg's Edition...
Is the "michael AT massorah.org" email contact still valid...?
I'd like to get in touch with you about this project...
I have retired after a long career in computer consulting and I still keep very active in different computer-related fields...
I have accumulated a large "collection" of pretty fancy software that I constantly use in many of my "pet" projects...
I love the BibleWorks - despite of the many idiosyncracies and "undocumented features" and I am currently working on a number of user modules...
This thread has caught my eye and got me quite excited...
I would be more than willing to join forces with you and anyone else who may feel the same way...

TTFN, hope hearing from you at your convenience...

Emanuel
(a.k.a. Gaius on this forum)

Enko
11-10-2007, 10:22 AM
Shalom!

What's the status of this project?

Andrew Fincke
11-23-2007, 08:14 PM
1) Ginzsburg's work is incomplete;
2) Who needs the massora in a computer age?
Save the time and effort for typing in Ben Sira Hebrew and/or the Lucianic Greek text in the historical books. The masora is really a thing in itself. I took 3 months to do a paper on one note, and even then I didn't understand it fully.
Andrew
PS Count me in!

MWMiles
11-25-2007, 07:51 PM
post removed

ugotdave
12-30-2007, 12:02 AM
The Massorah Project is alive and well. As of right now, to my knowledge, there are only a few working on it. And it appears that the ones who are working on it, are doing it solo.

I purchased a copy of volume 4. I am in the process of getting it TIFF’ed for preservation and OCR’ing purposes. This will cost about $600.00. So it is on the back burner for now. Currently I am manually typing volume 4, and I am keeping the original format. It has mostly English characters, so speech recognition is working for me as well. I don’t type very fast.

The biggest challenge will be volumes 1-3.

MGVH
01-04-2008, 06:21 PM
Are these texts in the public domain and copyright clear?

The first link is to a RAR file (need an unzipping program like 7-zip to unpack it) that contains 14 different Bibles in RTF text: Delitzsch Hebrew NT, Salkinson Ginsburg Hebrew NT, Aleppo Codex, BHS (3 versions), Chayim-Ginsburg, Koren Tanach, MT (Karaite), Tanach Massoretic Morphology, Westminster Leningrad Codex, Modern Hebrew OT-NT, and a couple others. There are no copyright notices that I can see on the couple I checked. (It takes a while to open these RTF files in MSWord.)

The second link is to a complete PDF (text, not images) of the "Masoretic Text according to Jacob ben Chayim and C.D. Ginsburg published in 1894. It has a 2002-2005 copyright notice by Bibles.org.uk. (I can't find any link to this text from that site.) It is a beautiful text with 4500 footnotes!

This is pretty amazing stuff, but is it legal? If so, thank you!

EDIT (2007.01.05) - Looks like the post to which this was a reply got deleted, so I'm guessing not copyright clear...

ugotdave
01-05-2008, 06:26 PM
Mark,

The original work is well outside the date. Only recent re-published material would hold a copyright, and I am not using anything recently published, like KTAV, or Tashla.

MGVH
01-05-2008, 07:57 PM
Hi, ugotdave!
I wasn't referring to your post re: copyright and the work you're doing on scanning OCRing. I can't remember who, but someone had posted with no message except two links to a RAR and PDF on a personal googlebooks site. It wasn't clear that those were copyright clear. I posted my inquiry, and when I came back, that post had apparently been deleted.

ugotdave
01-05-2008, 08:04 PM
oh, I got ya!

Not sure what happened to the missing posts...

MWMiles
01-11-2008, 03:49 AM
post removed

MWMiles
11-21-2008, 06:29 PM
post removed

MWMiles
11-22-2008, 07:34 PM
post removed

MWMiles
11-23-2008, 05:32 AM
post removed

MWMiles
11-25-2008, 06:45 PM
post removed

MWMiles
11-28-2008, 01:23 AM
post removed

MWMiles
11-28-2008, 10:42 AM
post removed

MWMiles
12-01-2008, 04:25 AM
post removed

MWMiles
12-08-2008, 12:11 AM
post removed

MWMiles
12-09-2008, 11:50 AM
post removed

BigJayOneill
12-12-2008, 06:57 PM
This is great... thank you!
:D

Jpcfortress
01-15-2009, 03:23 PM
It looks like this has been in the works for a while and looks very interesting. I'd be willing to help out with inputting the Hebrew text; I'm just not sure how long it will take.

I was wondering if you would need Bibleworks in order to help with inputting the Hebrew text or if I could you a word processor like Nota Bene or OpenOffice?

I don't have Bibleworks (yet), so if it is needed, I can't help out yet.

I'm new here and have been wasting my time yesterday and today watching how everyone has been drooling over Bibleworks 8...

MWMiles
02-14-2009, 01:33 PM
post removed

ugotdave
06-12-2009, 02:14 PM
Actually, I am still working on this project. It burns in my heart for some reason!

I have a grad total of 2 pages completed!! Wa Hoo...

I am working on Vol 4, the elephant folio's, which I purchased for $700.00 in '06 if my memory serves me right.

David M

ugotdave
06-14-2009, 01:47 PM
Yes, the more people we have the better.

I feel that this work would be one of the best Lexicology/Critical Textulism tools that BW could possibly have and distribute, excluding the canonized scriptures. (My Bias added, smile)

This work would have to be more than just an added (Help) module though. It would have to be integrated into the program itself with tags and a lexicon, and possibly its own bible version to integrate all three, or possibly more.

But this goes far, far, far beyond what I am capable of doing. I struggle with basic Hebrew, let alone being fluent enough to even read Ginsburg's Volumes 1-3 or the BHS for that matter.

The 4th Volume of Ginsburg's work is mostly in English. That is why I opted to start with that one.

So, "Team Work", yes! We need a group of people far more qualified than I to complete this work.