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Adelphos
06-16-2006, 07:47 PM
Following David's question, I tried exporting Hebrew to unicode and I can't get it to work properly, so I wonder what I'm doing wrong.

My OS is 98 SE. In export to font I had SBL Hebrew as the export font. It gives me gibberish when I paste to Word. In Davka, it gives me Hebrew characters, but some of them are incorrect. I do have this font installed on my system.

I would like to make this work if possible because in the font list within the BW option dialog, my Davka Hebrew fonts show up, which apparently means that I can export to those particular fonts since they are unicode compliant. However, when I export them to Davka from BW, I also get incorrect characters.

I don't know much about this -- what am I saying -- I know nothing about this, so if someone could guide me here, I'd appreciate it. I would love to be able to export BW Hebrew to Davka in unicode with the fonts working properly.

Michael Hanel
06-16-2006, 08:01 PM
What process are you using to Export (simply copy and paste or some other method?)? and what version of Word?

I set my export font to SBL Hebrew into Word 2002 and all worked fine (simply copying and pasting)

Adelphos
06-16-2006, 08:15 PM
What process are you using to Export (simply copy and paste or some other method?)? and what version of Word?

I'm using Word 2002 and I simply copy and paste. I get a bunch of gibberish. I would insert the picture here if I knew how. (How do you guys do that??? I print screen and crop and so forth, but I'll be doggoned if I know how to put that picture in this message).

So in lieu of the picture, it looks something like this --

????_?{?/???, etc.

I have the SBL font selected in the export option in BW. I also tried the copy center and copying the browse window text, but it gives me the same result.

I must have some option somewhere going on, but I haven't got the slightest idea what it is.

Adelphos
06-16-2006, 08:28 PM
I set my export font to SBL Hebrew into Word 2002 and all worked fine (simply copying and pasting)

I just tried something...

From within Word 2002, if I select SBL Hebrew font and start typing, it automatically reverts back to Times New Roman (my default font).

In other words, I can't actually type with the SBL Hebrew font in Word or any other program. Figure that one out. :cool:

Michael Hanel
06-16-2006, 08:29 PM
This is my only guess, otherwise I haven't a clue why it's not working for you.

When you go to Font options, you've clicked Export Fonts, do you have an X in the box (which means Unicode) just to the right of the SBL Hebrew Font Size?

Adelphos
06-16-2006, 08:37 PM
When you go to Font options, you've clicked Export Fonts, do you have an X in the box (which means Unicode) just to the right of the SBL Hebrew Font Size?

Yep. It's something specific to my system, I believe, since I can't even type the SBL Hebrew font from within Word.

Thanks for the help, but the bottom line is, I need a new computer.

Michael Hanel
06-16-2006, 08:41 PM
Yep. It's something specific to my system, I believe, since I can't even type the SBL Hebrew font from within Word.

Thanks for the help, but the bottom line is, I need a new computer.

And just another reason why we're not quite "there" yet with full-Unicode support. The support for it is still rather spotty in many "old" computers. And heck even on computers that can use Unicode, it's still tricky to figure out how to go back and forth to different keyboards, etc.

I hope the transition to HD TV isn't going to be this painful. Gotta love technology, I think that's why BW still suggests scholars keep their books and pencil and paper handy in spite of all that Bible software can do.

MGVH
06-16-2006, 09:20 PM
Actually, selecting the SBL Hebrew font and then just starting to type, the expected behavior would be that it reverts to TimesNewRoman in English.
That's because you are accessing the characters in the English range and you need to change both font AND KEYBOARD in order to get Hebrew.
It's a similar matter typing in Greek Unicode but a bit more complex with Hebrew since you have to manage the right to left deal.
I've posted directions for the basics here: http://www.gettysburgseminary.org/mhoffman/greek/fonts.htm
but there are links to more detailed instructions.

Adelphos
06-16-2006, 09:42 PM
And just another reason why we're not quite "there" yet with full-Unicode support.

Yes, and guess what? As soon as I buy a new computer, two weeks later there will be one with unicode support that's leaps and bounds ahead of the one I just bought, and at half the price.

I just got back from the computer store. I saw exactly the computer I want, and even though I took my credit card with me, I couldn't bring myself to buy a computer from an actual store. I came real close, though. But I'm salivating.

Of course, like I said, as soon as I buy it, a better version will come out two weeks later at half the price. That's why I keep hesitating. I'm looking for that perfect window, but I'm eventually going to have to bite the bullet, and that day is very fast approaching.

Now I'm off the manufacturer's website to see how much cheaper I can get the same computer! ;)

Adelphos
06-16-2006, 09:42 PM
Actually, selecting the SBL Hebrew font and then just starting to type, the expected behavior would be that it reverts to TimesNewRoman in English.

Thanks, Mark. That's good to know. I'll check out your links and study them. Thanks for making them available.

Adelphos
06-16-2006, 10:15 PM
I've posted directions for the basics here:

Well, after all that, I've concluded I'm not going to mess with unicode at this point, at least not until I'm running XP or Vista. Too many steps, and I don't need it.

As Mike said, there's a long way to go for unicode, so unless I need it beforehand, I think I'm going to wait for the "plug-n-play" version. :eek:

Adelphos
06-16-2006, 10:22 PM
That's because you are accessing the characters in the English range and you need to change both font AND KEYBOARD in order to get Hebrew.

Just out of curiosity, how come I can go here --

http://www.kathimerini.gr/
http://www.haaretz.co.il/

and read both Greek and Hebrew without any problem, and without making any modifications?

yugu
06-17-2006, 11:14 AM
Hi Adelphos,
try to perform the followings:

1 In Tools/Options/Fonts/Export Fonts, after you have activated Export Fonts (i think the option Export Hebrew Superscript in Tools/Option Flags/Export Options should checked as well), hit Edit Export Maps.
2. Hit Open and choose the file silheb.fmp
3. In the Export font take SBL.
4. Hit Save and give it name you like.
5. Check the Enable on.
6. Hit Close.
7. Select the text of WTT.
8. RightClick on it and choose Copy to the Clipboard.
9. Go to the Word program and try to paste it.
10. I wish you'll be lucky this time.

Yuri.

MGVH
06-17-2006, 11:48 AM
(I'm getting a bit beyond my competence here, but I think the following is correct...)
For the Greek site, you can read it because they are just using Greek characters that are still in the "Basic Greek" range that works fine with almost any of the earlier, standard TrueType fonts. (In MSWord, choose Insert > Symbol, and then look for the "Basic Greek" set of characters.)

What Unicode does is provide all the needed Greek characters (ie, with breathing marks, accents, iota subscripts, etc.) within a single font along with English and as many other languages that the font composer wants to include.

Adelphos
06-17-2006, 01:41 PM
Hi Adelphos, try to perform the followings:

Yuri, that worked perfectly!
!hbr hdwt

Mark, thanks for the explanation. I'm glad I can read those websites, but I still don't really understand the unicode issue. ;)

David, if you're reading this, I do now get the same behavior as you when I paste the SBL Hebrew font (thanks to Yuri) into Word. That is, the text automatically becomes right-aligned with the english on the right of the Hebrew.

On the other hand, for what it's worth, the same text pastes perfectly into Davka. Plus, it automatically converts to the Davak David font, and is automatically formatted for Hebrew typing from within Davka, so this gives me the best of both worlds because all I have to do to switch between english/hebrew is hit alt / (alt + forward slash, i.e., it's a toggle), and viola!

What a great new discovery! ;)

MBushell
06-17-2006, 03:55 PM
Unicode support under Windows 98 is almost non-existent. In order to get the Unicode Hebrew export to work in BW you have to be running XP service pack 2, using a Word processor that supports Unicode Hebrew well (Word 2003 was the first one that did this at all decently) and you must also install a Hebrew keyboard in the Control Panel using the Reagional and Language Options applet. What a mess huh? Basically, if you have Windows 98 you might as well forget about Unicode Hebrew.

Mike

Adelphos
06-17-2006, 04:31 PM
Basically, if you have Windows 98 you might as well forget about Unicode Hebrew.

Then the Lord must be smiling on me (a rare occurrence indeed) because the export from WTT to Davka works PERFECTLY.

I used to have to copy from Davka's Tanach the range of verses I pulled from BW, because it was pasting BWHEBB into the document and I needed the Davka font, but now, with the unicode export, it automatically pastes into my document the Davka font, which is PERFECT. Saves me a lot time.

But I still need a new computer. ;)

MBushell
06-17-2006, 04:45 PM
Ahhh. Davka. Glad it works. My comments applied more to mainstream stuff. I've shied away from programs like Davka because of difficulties sharing files with other people. If you can get Unicode out of BW into Davka under Windows 98, I am more than a little impressed :-) But as far as I know there is no Unicode solution for Word under Windows 98.
Mike

Adelphos
06-17-2006, 05:19 PM
I've shied away from programs like Davka because of difficulties sharing files with other people.

That's Davka's number one weakness. I have tried repeatedly to get them to make a couple of their fonts available in the same way that you and BW make your fonts available, but to no avail. Thus far, they are dead set on keeping everything internal, and while I love their program, I do not like their policy on this matter.

David Kummerow
06-18-2006, 06:53 AM
David, if you're reading this, I do now get the same behavior as you when I paste the SBL Hebrew font (thanks to Yuri) into Word. That is, the text automatically becomes right-aligned with the english on the right of the Hebrew.

On the other hand, for what it's worth, the same text pastes perfectly into Davka. Plus, it automatically converts to the Davak David font, and is automatically formatted for Hebrew typing from within Davka, so this gives me the best of both worlds because all I have to do to switch between english/hebrew is hit alt / (alt + forward slash, i.e., it's a toggle), and viola!


OK, that's good to know. I wonder, then, whether it is a BW thing or a Word thing. That is, which program is right-aligning the text? Sometimes I want this to happen, eg when pasting a large section. But sometimes I don't, eg a clause to appear in the middle of an English sentence. So it would be good to be able to "toggle" right- or left-aligning.

So Davka displays the same as when pasting non-unicode into Word?

yugu
06-18-2006, 10:08 AM
But as far as I know there is no Unicode solution for Word under Windows 98.
Mike

Well actually Microsoft guys say that there can be [some kind of?] Unicode in Win 98, but just need some play with their updates and modules.

Anybody interested? - Read about it here:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/intl/unicode_9i79.asp

Yet I have to say that I run on Win2000 and didn't tested that Win95/98/Me staff for myself.

Adelphos
06-18-2006, 10:27 AM
So Davka displays the same as when pasting non-unicode into Word?

Davka displays perfectly with regard to right-left display, so I'd say it's a Word thing.

In other words, I get --

The clause then the Hebrew, unlike in Word which puts the English to the right of the Hebrew.

Now that I've discovered this "new" (new for me) capability, I've been copying the HNT by chapters into Davka, and it has come off without a hitch so far. It automatically converts to the Davka David font (their main font), points and all, so I don't have to do a thing.

In the WTT, however, it works the same with the points and maqqef and so forth, but one or two accents don't translate properly, which in your case would probably be a deal breaker. It could be something specific to my system since I'm using 98 SE, but I doubt it since it works with the HNT, which doesn't have accents.

David Kummerow
06-18-2006, 07:36 PM
In the WTT, however, it works the same with the points and maqqef and so forth, but one or two accents don't translate properly, which in your case would probably be a deal breaker. It could be something specific to my system since I'm using 98 SE, but I doubt it since it works with the HNT, which doesn't have accents.

But what if you try instead SBL Hebrew in Davka? Is there still a few accent problems, or is everything represented as it should be?

I'm curious to know if Job 7:11 renders correctly, since even in BW it isn't correct. The word in question should be:

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4802/job7114ky.jpg

That is, is the metheg placed correctly?

Adelphos
06-18-2006, 08:05 PM
That is, is the metheg placed correctly?

No, the metheg doesn't even show up.


I also used Job as a test case, specifically Job 1:7, and the Darga in the first word, וַיֹּ֧אמֶר, doesn't display properly, and the Zakef Katon in בָּאָ֔רֶץ doesn't display properly either.


I have SBL as my export font in BW. That's the only way I can get it to work at all. If I choose a Davka font within BW, it doesn't work.

I don't know if it's my 98 SE that would be causing this, or if that's just the way it is.


Without accents the export works perfectly. In other words, consonants and vowel points work fine.

Adelphos
06-18-2006, 09:00 PM
I should add that most of the time the accents also display properly, but in some instances, as in the example above, they don't.

Oh, and once I paste from BW into Davka, it won't let me choose SBL for my font. It defaults to Davka's main font, and although I can use any of Davka's fonts, I cannot switch to a Hebrew font outside of Davka's own array.

Perhaps the Note Bene crowd could chime in here and see if it handles all the unicode exports from BW properly.