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NumberMan
06-01-2006, 09:13 AM
I've heard this arguement back and forth. I was only aware a couple Latin texts contain the 616 that were dated around 400-500 AD. Then I ran across this article that contains some Greek Papyrus using 616 pre 300A.D.

My BYZ Oldest Greek shows 666. Anyone know if there is any validity to this article link and the source?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44169

Michael Hanel
06-01-2006, 09:32 AM
If you have BW7 you can look up the reference of that verse in Bruce Metzger's Textual Commentary. The NET version also has a short note on this verse. It is quite valid that the reading "616" does exist, obviously the question is whether that is the original reading or not. I don't have time to look up any bibliographic evidence but I guarantee this would be a subject which would be written about in journals. In any case, it certainly isn't a new discovery.

millenia05@earthlink.net
06-01-2006, 01:44 PM
Thank you Michel for pointing this out in the NET bible. Any "number for man" other than 7 (seven), which must be reserved for God, could have been used in Rev 13:18 at the point in the prophecy.

I wish we had more people and a room for good commentary.

Michael Hanel
06-01-2006, 01:57 PM
Thank you Michel for pointing this out in the NET bible. Any "number for man" other than 7 (seven), which must be reserved for God, could have been used in Rev 13:18 at the point in the prophecy.

I wish we had more people and a room for good commentary.

You can try to bring it up on the non-BibleWorks portion of the forums, but there haven't been too many exegetical discussions in general because they often turn into ships crossing in the dark. In the general BibleWorks discussion forum though I try to avoid anything that's not specifically related to the running of BW, which is why I only wanted to point to some of BW's resources rather than give my interpretation to Revelation. There are enough books out there that probably give a more informed opinion than anything you'd hear from me :)

Adelphos
06-01-2006, 07:56 PM
...but there haven't been too many exegetical discussions in general because they often turn into ships crossing in the dark.

I'm reminded of the Larson cartoon some years ago...

There's a picture of the devil, clearly annoyed, standing next to a workman who is sitting on a ladder under a doorway in hell. Above the door, on the arch, in big, bold letters, is painted -

9 9 9

The worker sitting on the bench, dressed in overalls and squinting at a piece of paper, says --

"Well I'll be.... I must have been holding the dang work order like this." -:)

NumberMan
06-01-2006, 08:05 PM
Lol - 999 yes


I was mostly curious because of the papyrus claim of 616. I thought it only was on the Latin Codex texts after 400AD and nothing before that. It's sort of related to Bibleworks because I have the Oldest Greek add - on pack and it uses 666.

Thanks for the Replys

Michael Hanel
06-01-2006, 08:24 PM
Lol - 999 yes


I was mostly curious because of the papyrus claim of 616. I thought it only was on the Latin Codex texts after 400AD and nothing before that. It's sort of related to Bibleworks because I have the Oldest Greek add - on pack and it uses 666.

Thanks for the Replys

If you use the Comfort and Barrett add on, when you're on Rev 13:18 you will see Comfort and Barrett in the Resource Summary and links to Papyrus 115. Papyrus 115 it says is dated around 3rd c. and clearly reads 616 so that would debunk both the myth that it's only in Latin codices and only after 400 AD.

Columcille
06-05-2006, 03:24 PM
667 - neighbour of the beast.