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Noel Fitzpatrick
05-06-2006, 11:54 AM
I am very grateful to all who have responded to my queries in the past. They have been so excellent and constructive that I am encouraged to ask some broader questions.

Basically I hoped to study the use of Scripture in 1Cl. Initially I had hoped to focus on the LXX. However as I am more familiar with the writings of Paul I now hope to concentrate on 1Co, which would be a simpler study, even though much work has already been done in this area. Thus my study will be on comparing the First Letters of Clement and Paul to the Corinthians. Recently The Reception of The New Testament in the Apostolic Fathers (edited by A Gregory and C Tuckett, Oxford, 2005) has appeared and this covers much of my interests.

I have been advised to spend time studying initially the help files and videos in BW 7. This I am doing. However it is more interesting to get involved in an actual research project, even though, at this stage, I may be trying to run before I can crawl.

A friend of mine has used BW to find out the words/allusions/quotations from Ezekiel in John, with from two to five words in common. I think her study is elegant, and I would like to do a similar study on the use of 1Co in 1Cl.

I would welcome any suggestions.

In Christ,

Noel.

Adelphos
05-06-2006, 11:58 PM
I would welcome any suggestions.

Noel, one good way to get started is to try to figure out something that you want to do in your utilization of BW. For example, if you want to do a search that compares certain things in 1 Cor with 1 Cle then try to construct such a search and perform it.

If you can't, or it's not to your satisfaction, post on this forum specifically what you are trying to do, or the search that you are trying to perform.

I guess this would be called hands-on learning. ;)

Noel Fitzpatrick
05-09-2006, 03:29 PM
Hi Scott

Due to the many very helpful suggestions I received from contributors to these forums, I am clearer now about what I want to research.

Some time ago I did a study of Paul and Polycarp’s Letters to the Philippians. Now I want to consider, in a comparative way, the First Letters of Paul and Clement to the Corinthians.

Some time ago a friend of mine did a very elegant study using BW. She found all the places in John where there were two, three or four words from a verse in Ezekiel

There is no problem in finding all words common to two texts. However using a GSE approach I am not sure how one would find (for example) all verses in 1Cl that have three words occurring in a verse in 1Co.

I would welcome suggestions.

Regards,

Noel

Adelphos
05-09-2006, 09:10 PM
However using a GSE approach I am not sure how one would find (for example) all verses in 1Cl that have three words occurring in a verse in 1Co.

Okay, I give up... what do you mean, exactly? ;)

Glenn Weaver
05-10-2006, 10:09 AM
Dear Noel,

To get you started, I think you will want to create words lists in the Word List Manager, then save them as IEL (Inclusion/Exclusion List) files, then use them in the Graphical Search Engine to find your words.

Glenn

Noel Fitzpatrick
05-10-2006, 04:58 PM
Dear Glenn and Scott

thank you for your e-mails. I do appreciate it that you replied to me.

The WLM is a good place to start. I have lists of words in 1cl and also those in 1cl but not in 1co etc. I have also got lists of original nouns etc. with their English meanings, automatically generated. This will help me study the dependence of Clement on Biblical, Jewish (Philo and Josephus) and secular (Stoic) sources.

I have also found the synopsis tool very helpful.

I have changed to BW 7 from Logos, as the promised Logos morphological versions of the Apostolic Fathers, which I ordered months ago, has not yet appeared. Last night I saw a new version of Logos has appeared, but I am getting very fond of BW 7 and intend to stick with it.

I tried to explain a number of times what I would like to do using the GSE approach. It must be possible as a friend did a similar thing.

She was studying Ezekiel in John systematically. She was able to find all occurrences of verses in both texts which had three words in common. She repeated this with two, four and five words in common. Thus objectively she was able to find quotations/allusions of Ezekiel in John.

Regards,

Noel.

guilford
05-10-2006, 05:33 PM
Do you mean three words together that appear in both places in order as a particular phrase?

Or do you mean a verse in 1Cl that has any three words that also appear in a verse in 1Co (in any order, with any number of others words in between)?

Brad

Adelphos
05-10-2006, 05:45 PM
She was able to find all occurrences of verses in both texts which had three words in common.

I'm not sure how to perform this. In the John/Ezekiel construction you have a common denominator, i.e., KJV, NAU, and so forth, where say, the KJV contains verses in both John and Ezekiel.

In 1Co and 1Cl you don't have such a common denominator. As Glenn said, it sounds like the first (and simplest) thing you would want to do is to use the WLM (Word List Manager).

You load all the words of 1Co into one side of the WLM, then load all the words of 1Cl into the other side of the WLM.

Then you can manipulate them accordingly, i.e., words that are COMMON to both lists, or words that are UNIQUE to both lists, and so on.

After including or excluding the words which suit you needs, and saving that list, you can then dive deeper into the pool.

However, using the GSE might still be difficult due to the lack of a common denominator.

If someone knows how to do this with the GSE, I wish they'd post it.

Otherwise, the only thing I can think of is to compile a hybrid English or Greek version in the VDC which contains both 1Co and 1Cl in the same database.

Once that is done, GSE searches would be a breeze.

Noel Fitzpatrick
05-10-2006, 05:50 PM
Dear Brad

I am sorry that my posts have been so unclear.

To find allusions, words are important, not exact phrases, Thus your second alternative is what I request.




Or do you mean a verse in 1Cl that has any three words that also appear in a verse in 1Co (in any order, with any number of others words in between)?

Brad
Thank you for helping to clarify my query.

Thus with such a search one would be able to find both quotes and allusions systematically.

Regards,

Noel.

Michael Hanel
05-10-2006, 06:31 PM
I'm not sure how to perform this. In the John/Ezekiel construction you have a common denominator, i.e., KJV, NAU, and so forth, where say, the KJV contains verses in both John and Ezekiel.

In 1Co and 1Cl you don't have such a common denominator. As Glenn said, it sounds like the first (and simplest) thing you would want to do is to use the WLM (Word List Manager).
....

Otherwise, the only thing I can think of is to compile a hybrid English or Greek version in the VDC which contains both 1Co and 1Cl in the same database.

Once that is done, GSE searches would be a breeze.

Maybe I can win points for creativity? Until someone comes out w a better way....what if you were to export 1 Corinthians and 1 Clement and compile that version as something you can throw away later. So you save these two text files as one text file with ONLY 1 Cor and 1 Clement. Then compile it as say a version called COR (or whatever you prefer).

Now use only this version which you have just compiled, run your searches. Cumbersome yes, in theory, it should work too. But if you're going to be doing a lot of work and want data for ONLY these two books, I don't see what problem you'd have.

There might be limitations here too and this might not work well, but it's easier right now to think of this than to come up w the GSE query :p I am confident better answers will follow....

Adelphos
05-10-2006, 06:34 PM
what if you were to export 1 Corinthians and 1 Clement and compile that version as something you can throw away later.

That's what I meant by a hybrid version...

And that's what I've done! ;)

The enclosed ZIP file contains ccg.txt and ccg.ddf

Place these files in your USERDB folder and then load the DDF file into the VDC.

Make sure "install after compiling" is checked.

Now compile the database.

You now have a CCG version which contains the SCR Greek of 1Co and the APF Greek of 1Cl...

All in one simple database. Now you can search till your heart's content.

Note: this file will show up in your Greek versions as CCG. Go to "Display Versions" and scroll down until you see CCG. Check this to display it, and also type CCG on the command line to make it the search version.

Michael Hanel
05-10-2006, 07:17 PM
That's what I meant by a hybrid version...

And that's what I've done! ;)


Sorry I missed that, so much for my thought of creativity. I didnt read closely enough! :eek:

Noel Fitzpatrick
05-10-2006, 08:43 PM
Dear Michael and Scott

many thanks for your very imaginative and subtle ideas.

I will try to do as you suggest and let you know my progress.

The more I use BW 7 and read your posts, as well as those of others, the more I am impressed with the power of it.

Regards,

Noel.

Adelphos
05-10-2006, 08:52 PM
The more I use BW 7 and read your posts, as well as those of others, the more I am impressed with the power of it.

Did you download the file I enclosed above? That should solve all your problems. Now that they're combined, you can search 1Co and 1Cl all kinds of ways.

Noel Fitzpatrick
05-10-2006, 09:23 PM
Hi all

Thank you for your interest in 1co in 1cl.

My friend has published her studies on Ezekiel and John:.

ISBN: 3460003111
Call No: 226.53 KOW
By: Kowalski, Beate.
Book: Die Hirtenrede (Joh 10,1-18) im Kontext des Johannesevangeliums:
Publ.: Stuttgart, Katholisches Biblelwerk, 1996.
Extent; v,378p.: 21cm.
Series; Stuttgarter Biblische Beiträge; 31
Subj.; Bible - N.T. - John X - Criticism, interpretation, etc.

You might like to look at:

http://www.bookreviews.org/pdf/5187_5499.pdf

http://www.bookreviews.org/pdf/5187_5462.pdf

http://cafeapocalypsis.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_cafeapocalypsis_archive.html

In the last URL it is stated that “I have recently worked through Beate Kowalski, Die Rezeption des Propheten Ezekhiel in der Offenbarung des Johannes, SBB 52 (Stuttgart: Katholisches Bibel Werk GmbH, 2004). Her work surpasses that of both Vogelgesang and Jean-Pierre Ruiz. She analyzes every possible allusion to Ezekiel and demonstrates remarkable similarities between the structures of the two books."

In one of the reviews it is noted that Kowalski “uses tools such as BibleWorks for Windows to uncover possibilities that have not yet been dealt with in the literature.”

Regards,

Noel.

jdarlack
05-11-2006, 11:56 AM
I too put together a hybrid version of 1Cl and 1Co (both a morphological version [CCM] and a text version [CCT]). It's in a zip file here (http://oldinthenew.org/bibleworks/version/1cl1co.zip). (I lept before looking at the other posts!)

I've also included in the zip file a GSE search based on the CCM hybrid. The GSE query includes an Inclusion/Exclusion List that contains all nouns and verbs common to 1Co and 1Cl. You may want to use the Word List Manager to come up with a list that includes common Adverbs and Adjectives. After you put together that list, you may wish to trim off certain words that are very common, even though they are nouns, verbs, adjectives or adverbs (e.g. γίνομαι or εἰμί).

You could then use the coloring tool to "color" any text that has the common vocabulary (I've included a color file based on the search that is included as well - copy it to the databases dir). At this point you could scan through 1 Clement in the CCT and see all of the places where there are verbal affinities with 1 Corinthians. I've also included a modified Synopsis file based on Corinthian citations/allusions in the editions of Lightfoot, Holmes & Lake.

By the way, the "hybrid" text takes care of the quirks in the Synopsis File when using non-biblical texts.

Adelphos
05-11-2006, 01:36 PM
I too put together a hybrid version of 1Cl and 1Co...
I've also included in the zip file a GSE... The GSE query includes an Inclusion/Exclusion List... I've included a color file based on the search that is included as well... I've also included a modified Synopsis file based on Corinthian citations/allusions in the editions of Lightfoot, Holmes & Lake.

Jim, how come you left out a thesis?

Noel Fitzpatrick
05-12-2006, 01:40 PM
I am grateful to all who contributed to this discussion. You have given me much food for thought, as well as practical suggestions.

I have been asked how I am getting on with utilising the suggestions. I am making slow progress, since I am going over the ideas suggested slowly and carefully and hence learning about BW7 and getting useful insights into Clement as I go along. I consider him the sole author of 1Cl and a Roman bureaucrat, very interested in order.

I will keep you informed about my progress.

One of the best books recently written about 1cl is Concord and Peace by O. D. Bakke (Mohr Siebeck, 2001). Thus I intend to study 1cl as a work against Strife and Factionalism (ERIS and ZHLOS)

However I am a recent convert to BW7, as previously I used to use Logos (Libronix DLS). I find I am getting more keen on BW7, but I miss not being able to look at TDNT, BDAG and ABD with a click!

Regards and thanks once more.

Noel.

Mark Eddy
05-12-2006, 01:47 PM
However I am a recent convert to BW7, as previously I used to use Logos (Libronix DLS). I find I am getting more keen on BW7, but I miss not being able to look at TDNT, BDAG and ABD with a click!
Noel.
You may wish to check out another section of the BW discussion to learn how you can link BW7 to Libronix databases.
Linking BibleWorks to websites and other programs (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=61)
Discussion about opening other programs or websites from within BibleWorks
Mark Eddy

Noel Fitzpatrick
05-13-2006, 02:59 PM
Many thanks for all the suggestions.

I have been going over them, as best I can. I am afraid I am not sure I fully understand the ideas of Scott and Jim.

I also am not clear on how to jump from BW7 to Logos. I have MS Windows 2000, thus I cannot use the External Links Manager (ELM).

I have made an IEL list with all the words in 1cl and 1co (as suggested). This is useful.

My aims are to stick with studying the tutorials, to get practice using GSE, but also to read about Clement and Paul. Then if there is any time left I will read 1cl, 1co and other parts of the Bible!! (not quite sola scriptura).

Regards,

Noel.

Adelphos
05-13-2006, 07:33 PM
I am afraid I am not sure I fully understand the ideas of Scott and Jim.

Noel, download Jim's version. It is a morphological version and therefore far better than mine. You will notice it's a zip file.

Once you open the zip file, you will see a number of files contained therein.

Place the following files in your USERDB folder -- cct.ddf, cct.txt, ccm.ddf, ccm.txt

Now, once in BW, open the VDC (Version Database Compiler). From the VDC, select Open from box # 1.

Open the file ccm.ddf.

In box # 2 (just beneath it) you will find that a path|filename already exists. Jim placed these in a subfolder, so you will need to alter this info.

Thus, choose open from box #2, and the dialog box should open to your default USERDB folder. Select ccm.txt

All other boxes should already be correctly filled in, so all you have to do now is make sure "install after compiling" is checked (bottom right).

Now click "compile"

Repeat this same procedure for cct.ddf, cct.txt.

You will now have both a CCM database (morphological version) and a CCT database. These databases contain 1 Corinthians and 1 Clement.

You will find them both listed under "Greek" in the "Display Versions" dialog box.

You can now search these two databases exactly as you would any other BW version.

Place the "1co-1cl-cct.sdf" file in your INIT folder. You may now open this file from the Synopsis Tool.

Place the "words_common2_1cl+1co.qf" file in your ASE folder. You may now open this file from the GSE (it's a query file).

Try these out and I believe you will find that Jim has already done a ton of work in advancing your studies of 1 Corinthians and 1 Clement.

Greg Crawford
05-14-2006, 01:50 AM
I tried to send a private message to Jim and Scott (not wishing to clog up the bandwidth) thanking them for doing this work and leading us through the installation, but apparently the web interface does not give me permission to do that. :)

So, thanks Jim and Scott!

Gontroppo
05-14-2006, 06:44 AM
Hi Jim and Scott.

I'd like to thank Jim for his hard work in compiling this resource and Scott for his work in taking us step by step through setting it up in BibleWorks.
David McKay
who saw his one year old grandson, Jerome, almost walking yesterday, but not at all today!

Jonhenry
05-14-2006, 06:49 PM
I don't have an abiding interest in 1Co. --> 1Cl., but I have found the postings of the last few days to be most instructive on how to begin such a study (I deal in OT-->post-exilic & OT-->NT passages). Thanks so much.