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markgunning
04-07-2006, 06:41 PM
Hello,

I recently purchased the Logos Original Languages Library product but am having second thoughts and am wondering if I should return it and buy BibleWorks instead.

My particular issue is that I am relatively new to Greek study but am taking an informal class where we are exegeting the book of 1 John. I need a tool which will provide me not only with the parsing information for a word but with what that information specifically means for that specific form of the word, preferably with reference to the specific context in which it is used.

For example, I can hover over a word and learn that it is a verb present active subjunctive 1st person plural. What I really need is to know what this means. What is the significance of the fact that its mood is subjunctive, is there significance in that it is a present subjunctive or an active subjunctive, how does that influence the specific meaning the word is intended to convey, etc.? I want the tool to tell me this rather than just giving the parsing data. Linking to TDNT or a grammar is not enough - I need a concise explanation of the significance of the particular form of the word and preferably including an analysis of the surrounding words if there is any change in meaning which could occur (such as by a modifier of the word being in a specific case, etc.).

I may be asking too much and it may be that the current state of the art for this type of software has not yet reached the point where an extensive grammatical analysis for every word in the Greek New Testament is possible.

Does anyone know if BibleWorks is able to do this?

Thank you.

Michael Hanel
04-07-2006, 07:09 PM
What I really need is to know what this means. What is the significance of the fact that its mood is subjunctive, is there significance in that it is a present subjunctive or an active subjunctive, how does that influence the specific meaning the word is intended to convey, etc.? I want the tool to tell me this rather than just giving the parsing data. Linking to TDNT or a grammar is not enough - I need a concise explanation of the significance of the particular form of the word and preferably including an analysis of the surrounding words if there is any change in meaning which could occur (such as by a modifier of the word being in a specific case, etc.).
I cannot recommend BibleWorks enough, HOWEVER, what you are asking for does not exist anywhere (in the sense that you could find answers to all of these questions in one resource). It is the stuff of commentaries and yet you'll not even find a commentary that will go into the detail that you're asking.

Indeed the reason BW and Logos are so helpful to students of languages is because they have so many other resources at your fingertips that link with the Greek or Hebrew text so you the student can look into these matters.

In a word, what you're asking for is someone to have done all of your homework for you. The real beauty (challenge and art) of exegesis is in YOUR hands. What is the significance of the present subjunctive in whatever verse? That's the stuff exegeticals and books and commentaries are made of. You won't find the answers and even if you do, you will find answerS, plural. Exegesis is an art, not a science. BW and Logos can help give you data but they cannot spit out answers like you're asking and even if they did, you would easily find people in the community who would disagree with such subjective statements.

Welcome to Greek, the pool is deep, but oh so rewarding :)

Dan Phillips
04-07-2006, 08:34 PM
If I understand your question, yes it does, and remarkably well.

A number of databases come with BW7, including at least two (and I think 3) Greek grammars. When you hover over a verse, relevant passages will be selected in those grammars, and you can click to them. You can also buy additional databases to go deeper. Davis' grammar, MacDonald's Enchiridion, and I believe Burton's Mood and Tenses all come free with the basic package. Really remarkable.

diggertoo
04-07-2006, 08:36 PM
Bibleworks 7 does have a feature allowing you to consult a number of Greek grammars for explanations of tenses, moods, and voices. The feature is accessable in the right hand analysis window (and possibly elsewhere).

I have only a very basic knowledge of Greek so far, but that feature has been informative and fairly easy to understand. Bibleworks also has some video clips of how to use the feature.

The program does come with a money back guarantee and a large number of very helpful forum members.

dbielby
04-12-2006, 02:43 PM
Hello,

I recently purchased the Logos Original Languages Library product but am having second thoughts and am wondering if I should return it and buy BibleWorks instead.

My particular issue is that I am relatively new to Greek study but am taking an informal class where we are exegeting the book of 1 John. I need a tool which will provide me not only with the parsing information for a word but with what that information specifically means for that specific form of the word, preferably with reference to the specific context in which it is used.

For example, I can hover over a word and learn that it is a verb present active subjunctive 1st person plural. What I really need is to know what this means. What is the significance of the fact that its mood is subjunctive, is there significance in that it is a present subjunctive or an active subjunctive, how does that influence the specific meaning the word is intended to convey, etc.? I want the tool to tell me this rather than just giving the parsing data. Linking to TDNT or a grammar is not enough - I need a concise explanation of the significance of the particular form of the word and preferably including an analysis of the surrounding words if there is any change in meaning which could occur (such as by a modifier of the word being in a specific case, etc.).

I may be asking too much and it may be that the current state of the art for this type of software has not yet reached the point where an extensive grammatical analysis for every word in the Greek New Testament is possible.

Does anyone know if BibleWorks is able to do this?

Thank you.

Yes...you can accomplish most of this with BW7.0. I do something like this every week. Put the cursor on the text you want to understand. Look at the analysis of the word...if it is an aorist subjunctive and you've forgotten what significance that has...just go up the screen and select resources and then grammars. Under grammars you will find Burton's and you can click on moods...and there is a summary of the various moods...click on Subjunctive and it gives you the standard options. You will only need to reason out which option is best for your context...and if you are uncomfortable with that...then I would recommend shooting your question out to b-greek online email group and they can answer things in detail from there. If you have one or two commentaries open next to your computer that are Greek Testament commentaries...then you will be ok. For example the NIGTC series is helpful on this sort of thing. I've never had trouble using these resources in getting a firm grasp of the grammatical points in the text. Another thing that you can do is consult Zerwick's analysis when it is available (aren't they working on that). So the short answer is that you can do almost everything in BW7.0...even if you are a noobie in Greek.

Noel Fitzpatrick
04-26-2006, 07:03 AM
Hi

Today I have been looking through some older threads.

I am also interested in the relative merits of BW 7 and Logos (LDLS).

I have both but am more familiar with Logos. However I am now trying to get some feeling for BW.

The reason the imperative is used rather than the subjunctive can be very challenging.

I am studying 1 Clement at present. The author uses subjunctives rather than imperatrives. Thus it has been argued that he is not ordering people to do things and is only suggesting. Thus 'Clement of Rome' does not see himself as the 'Head of the Church'. You can see how this leads to arguments and interesting research.

Regards,

Noel.