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billbello
04-16-2004, 10:29 AM
I'm new to Biblical languages. I know that BW has a 'Beyond the Basics" add-on module for Greek. But I need to start at the beginning. Any suggestions? Text or computer-based. Thanks. Bill

pastorsteve
04-16-2004, 11:33 AM
I'm not up on everything that is out there, but William Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek, along with its accompanying workbook, is a good resource. Moreover, Dr. Mounce has a website at http://www.teknia.com (http://www.teknia.com/) that has a workbook answer key, Teknia fonts, and other helpful resources.

Additionally, if you check out the Master List of BibleWorks Add-ons here on this site, someone has helpfully compiled Mounce's BBG2 vocabulary as a .vrt file you can use with the BibleWorks flashcards function.

If possible, I would recommend studying Greek with a friend or with your pastor. It's much easier to stay disciplined (and encouraged) if someone is going through it with you.

I hope this helps. I'm sure some of the current seminarians in our group have much better suggestions!

Joe Fleener
04-16-2004, 12:54 PM
Parson's Greek Tutor CD-ROM is also very helpful
(Greek Tutor Multimedia CD-Rom):

Here is their description:

"You'll be able to read, write, and pronounce Greek by the time you complete this interactive program. The equivalent of a first-year course, this self-paced program includes 28 units that start with the alphabet and finish with the first chapters of John's Gospel. Includes an online vocabulary builder, quick review charts, and memorization drills. 486, 4MB RAM, Windows 3.1 or higher. From Parsons."

Gontroppo
04-16-2004, 07:37 PM
G'day

The latest version of the program has several extra features. I would make sure you are buying the latest version.
Maybe it has some corrections, too.
I found several errors in the original program.

The most recent version is called Mastering New Testament Greek.

If you can possibly get someone to help you, it will be extremely beneficial. You might find a local minister would welcome the opportunity to brush up his Greek.

As our New South Wales Teachers' Federation motto goes:
Qui docet discit

The updated version they use is
It's amazing what you learn when you teach!

I would also urge you to read Carson's Exegetical Fallacies, because there are all sorts of illegitimate byways people find themselves in when they begin studying Greek. This book is not too difficult to read, and has lots of advice to stop you falling into some of these traps.

David McKay

Joe Fleener
04-16-2004, 08:03 PM
G'day

The latest version of the program has several extra features. I would make sure you are buying the latest version.
Maybe it has some corrections, too.
I found several errors in the original program.

The most recent version is called Mastering New Testament Greek.

If you can possibly get someone to help you, it will be extremely beneficial. You might find a local minister would welcome the opportunity to brush up his Greek.

As our New South Wales Teachers' Federation motto goes:
Qui docet discit

The updated version they use is
It's amazing what you learn when you teach!

I would also urge you to read Carson's Exegetical Fallacies, because there are all sorts of illegitimate byways people find themselves in when they begin studying Greek. This book is not too difficult to read, and has lots of advice to stop you falling into some of these traps.

David McKay

Thank you to Brother McKay for the info. I was not aware of an updated version. I am glad to hear about that.

I too strongly recommend Carson's Exegetical Fallacies. An excellent read and help to anyone going about the task of exegesis.

billbello
04-16-2004, 10:17 PM
Gentlemen,
Thanks for the information. Appreciate it.
Best regards,
Bill

Believing Sojourner
04-17-2004, 07:47 PM
I'm new to Biblical languages. I know that BW has a 'Beyond the Basics" add-on module for Greek. But I need to start at the beginning. Any suggestions? Text or computer-based. Thanks. Bill
Certainly the request was for constructive input and constructive and friendly input was given from other sources. I will not add to that at this time.

However, in the interest of balance I offer a counterview regarding Parsons and D. A. Carson. I was not happily impressed with Parsons when I bought it several years ago, and I developed a strong prejudice against D. A. Carson when I read one of his books several years ago. That is hardly to say I think there is no value in Parsons or to say that I do not believe D. A. Carson is much more learned and accomplished than myself.

My knowledge of the Biblical languages is not of a high calibre by any means, but I do keep exposing myself to the discipline, and I count myself very privileged to have the level of ability that I do have. A friend of mine who has read from D. A. Carson's Exegetical Fallacies has approached me several times for my thoughts regarding several of Carson's assertions, and I have seldom seen a position the friend asked me about where I agreed with Carson. It's not so much that I prefer my prejudiced view to Carson's. It's that I have read widely enough to know that very learned people in the past articulated views that are more in harmony with my own. I do not know, but I do suspect Carson ignores or misrepresents these other well stated positions rather than deal with them fairly. Okay, I should mellow out, but I speak from my own first hand observations made in the past.

Having said that, I presume there is value in seeing what Carson has to say. Still, I have many other unread books on the shelf that I expect have greater value. Why? Because I bought them after seeing them cited repeatedly in other books that I already read and greatly benefitted from.

--Scott

Gontroppo
04-21-2004, 05:14 AM
I think this may be almost equivalent to disagreeing with the pope for Catholics.

Can you tell us where specifically you disagree with Carson in his Exegetical Fallacies, or other works and why, please?

In my opinion, Don Carson has the great advantage of being bilingual, which gives him a different perspective on some issues.

David McKay

Believing Sojourner
04-22-2004, 04:29 AM
I think this may be almost equivalent to disagreeing with the pope for Catholics.

Can you tell us where specifically you disagree with Carson in his Exegetical Fallacies, or other works and why, please?

In my opinion, Don Carson has the great advantage of being bilingual, which gives him a different perspective on some issues.

David McKayDid I miss something? Are you suggesting D. J. Carson should be afforded the same level of respect and uncritical reverence as the Pope would have from Catholics? I presume not, but I fail to catch the need for such a comparison. I do not know D. J. Carson, and I have read only one of his books, back in perhaps 1993. That experience left a bad taste in my mouth. I never read Exegetical Fallacies, and the point of my comment was that perhaps the person enquiring for help in learning Greek should know that the unreserved appreciation for D. J. Carson is not unanimous.

You ask for specific instances where I disagree with D. A. Carson. I cannot remember the specific instances my friend asked me about regarding claims that were made by D. J. Carson in Exegetical Fallacies, but I do remember that in each case I was able to refer my friend to comments of other learned and devout men from prior generations who very ably presented and espoused the opposite view than Carson was presenting. I concurred with the other authors, and, of course, I was alarmed that Carson took the opposite side. Since I had already read one book by Carson I had reason to suspect that he may have given short shrift to the contrary presentations made by learned men in prior generations and possibly even this one. --It is entirely possible I am incorrect. Still, my friend was happy to hear citations with a different view.

In any case, I disclaim any remembrance of the items of disagreement my friend asked me about, but I do remember that in every case I could cite world class scholars from prior generations. As for the previous book I did actually read for myself, it was called something like, The King James Version Debate: a Plea for Honesty. I may be slightly off on the title. I read a borrowed copy.

From my perspective in the KJV controversy book Carson was doing a hatchet job, and he was not very honest about it. He was far too ready to misrepresent historical facts and cite only easy targets on the other side of the issue while generally ignoring more learned champions and leaving the uninformed reader with the impression that learned people would be in agreement with him. This was my conclusion after reading the book carefully. Unfortunately, I no longer have access to the book.

Scott Adams

Gontroppo
04-22-2004, 05:37 AM
I have only just finished telling someone on a list I assist in moderating that humour does not come over well in email, and now I have done the same thing I criticised in his post! I was joking when I compared Carson with the pope. Sorry this did not come across properly.

I must say that I disagree strongly with what you said about his book about the King James Version Debate. I think he has written a valuable critique of the view that the KJV is the best bible version, but for someone who thinks it is the best version, what he says may be hard to swallow.

At times I find Carson hard to read, but I think some of his books are the very best available on some subjects. The one I found hard to take was Love in Hard Places, where he sounded like he had turned into George W. Bush.

I think most Christians would find value in

Introduction to the New Testament [authorship shared with Leon Morris and Douglas Moo]

The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God

Exegetical Fallacies

his commentaries on John and Matthew

A Call to Spiritual Reformation [on Prayer in Paul's letters]

For the Love of God [2 volume brief devotional commentary on the bible]

Showing the Spirit [exposition of 1 Corinthians 12-14]

How Long, O Lord? [reflections on suffering and evil]

The Inclusive Language Debate: a plea for realism
David McKay

Believing Sojourner
04-22-2004, 09:49 PM
I must say that I disagree strongly with what you said about his book about the King James Version Debate. I think he has written a valuable critique of the view that the KJV is the best bible version, but for someone who thinks it is the best version, what he says may be hard to swallow.

David McKayI suppose I set myself up for this when I said I found the one book from Carson that I read left a bad taste in my mouth.

I think it would be wise for more people to consider issues more carefully rather than just conclude that a well stated position must be the correct one. It seems to me my original explanation of my original comment was that I found Carson to be far too prone to misrepresent historical facts and to give short shrift to learned champions on the other side of the issue. --I did at least read Carson's book, but I have also read others.



I emailed a friend in an effort to get more information about prior exchanges between the two of us. Following is an edited quote from his response:
I will pull out the KJV Debate Plea for Realism -- this is where we dialoged. Also I think you sent me a chapter by Letis critiquing this book.


I read Exegetical Fallacies and thought there were many items we would all agree with -- there were perhaps a few things that seemed wrong can't remember the specifics. The book was borrowed - Perhaps Sunday night I might be able to borrow it from a friend and refresh myself on the concerns I had.


My friend mentioned Theodore P. Letis in his email. Like Carson, Letis holds an earned Ph.D., and he is living. Consequently, I was not referring to Letis when I previously mentioned "very learned people in the past." Nor did I have access to Letis' critique or even know of his existence until years after I read Carson's book and drew my own conclusion.


Was the one book I read from Carson "hard to swallow?" I am not that skilled in the distinctions of idiomatic semantics, but I stand by my my own expression that it "left a bad taste in my mouth," and for me that is different. -- I presume other of Carson's writings would prove to have value, but I have a tremendous selection of authors to choose from, many of whom I have not read so much as one book from yet.

--Scott L. Adams

PBCGrad
05-10-2004, 01:57 AM
I have found J. Gresham Machen's "New Testament Greek for Beginners" has a great format. The only drawbacks are the price (unless you find it used), and the fact that you start by translating sentences of Machen's own construction, not Biblical texts. Bob Jones University offers its luvw cards for help on memorizing verb and participle paradigms. I would stay away from Wallace's "Beyond the Basics" for a coule of years.

billbello
05-20-2004, 01:53 PM
Gentle people!

Thanks again for the lively response! Appreciate all the comments. Keep'em coming.

Peace and Joy! Bill

Tyrone Brumwell
06-11-2004, 01:47 PM
If your wish is to learn Greek on your own, then I believe you are in for a rough ride. I suggest locating the Classics dept. at your local college and look for a tutor. College students are always looking for a quick way to make a few bucks. Ask a professor for a reference. I spent 2 years in college reading Greek under a professor I deeply respect. It was a lot of hard work.

However, I admire your spunk. I have studied primarily Ancient Greek, with a good exposure to Ionic, Doric, Aeolic, and Koine. The main resource we always turned to when grammatical questions arose was Smyth (Greek Grammar -- Herbert Weir Smyth -- Harvard University Press). The very beginning of this book is ideal for the beginner. It covers history, the alphabet, vowels & dipthongs, breathings, consonants and their divisions, pronunciation, vowel change, euphony of vowels (hiatus, contraction, synizesis, crasis, elision, and aphaeresis), final consonants, movable consonants, accent, and punctuation. This is only the tip of the iceberg. The contents of this book span 9 pages with some really tiny print. This is a book that not only covers the basics of grammar, but also covers the advanced grammar. I don't know of any other book that commands the same respect of scholars (christian and non-christian alike) as Smyth.

Smyth, however, is not a textbook.

The textbook I would recommend is (Beginning Greek -- Stephen W. Paine -- Oxford University Press). This book may be out of print, but should be easily located at Amazon-dot-com.

Because I deal a lot with cultists, I decided that it would be better for me if I learned Greek from a secular university. That way it is easy to side-step the critique that I learned Greek the wrong way, from already biased people.

Koine is a lot, I mean a lot simpler than learning Ancient Greek. However, the most difficult grammatical passages in the Bible seem easy after having studied Attic for a few years.

Good luck.

TS Brumwell

d-man
06-18-2004, 07:43 AM
Howdy, BillBello!

I just wanted to let you, or anyone else, know that I'm selling all of my Biblical Studies library this week on eBay. Among the 100+ high quality books I'm selling are many that will help you begin to learn NT Greek, etc, including the above mentioned

Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek with the workbook too and his very helpful reader

and

also The Essentials of NT Greek w/ workbook

and

Parsons Greek Tutor (along with Hebrew Tutor)

I haven't put many of the books up yet, I'm still in the process of listing books. Don't know if you or anyone else will see this post in time but thought I'd mention it.

To see the list of stuff I'm selling simply click on this link:

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=davidnichunt&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50

If those books aren't listed yet just wait, they'll be there soon.



If this post is unwelcome or whatever, just go ahead and excuse it (after all... remember, it's just a post. ;))

-d-man

John Buckle
09-01-2004, 04:56 PM
I'm new to Biblical languages. I know that BW has a 'Beyond the Basics" add-on module for Greek. But I need to start at the beginning. Any suggestions? Text or computer-based. Thanks. Bill
David Alan Black - Introduction to the Greek New Testament

Mont Cessna
09-02-2004, 10:05 PM
I'm new to Biblical languages. I know that BW has a 'Beyond the Basics" add-on module for Greek. But I need to start at the beginning. Any suggestions? Text or computer-based. Thanks. Bill
Mounce is a very good first choice if you have some one to do it with. Another option is Learn New Testament Greek by John Dobson. The method is a little different but if you are going it on your own it is easier than Mounce. You may also want to check out textit.com (http://www.textit.com/), they have many good resources.

David Kummerow
09-03-2004, 11:25 PM
...Any suggestions? Text or computer-based. Thanks. Bill
What about a "live language method"? See:

http://www.biblicalulpan.org/

(I have the Hebrew materials and they a very good. Still saving to purchase the Greek ones...)

Follow that with books like George H. Guthrie and J. Scott Duvall, Biblical Greek Exegesis: A Graded Approach to Learning Intermediate and Advanced Greek (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998); and Stephen H. Levinsohn, Discourse Features of New Testament Greek: A Coursebook on the Information Structure of New Testament Greek (2nd ed.; Dallas: SIL, 2000) and you'll be very capable.

David Kummerow.

jarcher
11-10-2004, 11:02 PM
I'm new to Biblical languages. I know that BW has a 'Beyond the Basics" add-on module for Greek. But I need to start at the beginning. Any suggestions? Text or computer-based. Thanks. Bill
Bill,

Here is the audio recording for the vocab for the first 14 chapters of Mounce's BBG. I hope you find it helpful. I am planning on finishing the remainder of it soon. After you've installed the BBG Vocab flashcards copy the wav files into the 'sounds' directory.

Thanks,

Jeremy

http://glorytogodalone.com/v-web/portal/cms/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=6

Joe Fleener
11-11-2004, 02:04 PM
Jeremy,

I found the BBG Vocab flashcards on your website (very nice site by the way), but they are a .vrt file...maybe I assumed too much, but I was hoping these were going to be in BW format for the flash card module in 6.0 (.vrc).

Maybe, I am missing something.

Thanks,

Michael Hanel
11-11-2004, 05:16 PM
Jeremy,

I found the BBG Vocab flashcards on your website (very nice site by the way), but they are a .vrt file...maybe I assumed too much, but I was hoping these were going to be in BW format for the flash card module in 6.0 (.vrc).

Maybe, I am missing something.

Thanks,

Joe, unless I'm missing something don't you just have to import the VRT in the flashcard module? See this from the help file in BW:

If you want to create a completely new flashcard set from scratch, you need to create a table of information describing the card set in an external editor . The file should be saved with a .VRT extension. Then you select File | Import File to import the text file and create a new compiled card set. An easy way to get started is to select File | Export File to export a currently loaded card set. It will be saved with a .VRT extension but you can load it into any text editor. In fact it is mostly a tab-delimited list and loads very nicely into Excel or another spreadsheet. A spreadsheet is an ideal way to create vocabulary lists. The first portion of a card file might look like this in a spreadsheet. Note that when you import the list from BibleWorks the first two columns would be in English. You would just need to select those columns and change the font to BWGRKL
Mike

Bill Moore
11-11-2004, 07:07 PM
What about a "live language method"? See:

http://www.biblicalulpan.org/

(I have the Hebrew materials and they a very good. Still saving to purchase the Greek ones...)

Follow that with books like George H. Guthrie and J. Scott Duvall, Biblical Greek Exegesis: A Graded Approach to Learning Intermediate and Advanced Greek (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998); and Stephen H. Levinsohn, Discourse Features of New Testament Greek: A Coursebook on the Information Structure of New Testament Greek (2nd ed.; Dallas: SIL, 2000) and you'll be very capable.

David Kummerow.
I've been looking into Buth's Biblical Ulpan resources to improve my biblical languages which have languished since seminary. You describe them as "very good." Have you taken Hebrew elsewhere? Can you compare them to, say, working through a grammar text such as Mounce?

Thanks,
Bill

David Kummerow
11-12-2004, 06:20 PM
I've been looking into Buth's Biblical Ulpan resources to improve my biblical languages which have languished since seminary. You describe them as "very good." Have you taken Hebrew elsewhere? Can you compare them to, say, working through a grammar text such as Mounce?

Thanks,
BillHi Bill,

I did a year of Hebrew at Bible College four years ago followed by two years of OT Hebrew exegesis classes. I'm now one year into an MTh looking at the syntax, semantics, and pragmatics of independent personal pronoun usage in BH. I'm hoping to upgrade this next year to a PhD. I do like Hebrew.

What I find good about Buth's resources is that it "gets it into your head". Ie, you begin to be able to understand BH as BH in and of itself - you don't so much have to do an English translation to make sense of the words you are reading. This is an important thing, I think - and I also think that somewhere here is the reason why most people drop their languages after College/Seminary and why Buth's resources leave you (once you've completed them) in a much better position to maintain them. But in our current educational environment, Buth's method would be hard to assess, at least initially. The result, though, pays off more long them I think, particuarly if it means that one is more likely to maintain their language(s). So probably taking these things into consideration, they would certainly pay off to start using them before doing Hebrew/Greek at College/Seminary and then as you're going through using Mounce or whatever. And then they're also probably good to use to refresh.

Hope this helps some.

David Kummerow.

jarcher
11-12-2004, 08:18 PM
Jeremy,

I found the BBG Vocab flashcards on your website (very nice site by the way), but they are a .vrt file...maybe I assumed too much, but I was hoping these were going to be in BW format for the flash card module in 6.0 (.vrc).

Maybe, I am missing something.

Thanks,Joe,

I assume you figured this out via the instructions of our other kind members? If not, drop me an email and I can send you instructions on how to install.

Thanks,

Jeremy

Joe Fleener
11-12-2004, 08:37 PM
Yes, the posts were very helpful. I have used the flashcard module, but have not imported a new list before.

It worked like a charm! Very nice.

Thanks for your help.

Bill Moore
11-13-2004, 07:12 PM
Hi Bill,

I did a year of Hebrew at Bible College four years ago followed by two years of OT Hebrew exegesis classes. I'm now one year into an MTh looking at the syntax, semantics, and pragmatics of independent personal pronoun usage in BH. I'm hoping to upgrade this next year to a PhD. I do like Hebrew.

What I find good about Buth's resources is that it "gets it into your head". Ie, you begin to be able to understand BH as BH in and of itself - you don't so much have to do an English translation to make sense of the words you are reading. This is an important thing, I think - and I also think that somewhere here is the reason why most people drop their languages after College/Seminary and why Buth's resources leave you (once you've completed them) in a much better position to maintain them. But in our current educational environment, Buth's method would be hard to assess, at least initially. The result, though, pays off more long them I think, particuarly if it means that one is more likely to maintain their language(s). So probably taking these things into consideration, they would certainly pay off to start using them before doing Hebrew/Greek at College/Seminary and then as you're going through using Mounce or whatever. And then they're also probably good to use to refresh.

Hope this helps some.

David Kummerow.
David,

Thanks. I may get Buth's resources after the first of the year. My seminary Hebrew is all but gone, and my Greek is not nearly where I wish. Buth may be just what I need.

Bill