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pastor-steve
02-16-2006, 04:43 AM
Please ignore this post. The solution is to enable "Remember command line verse ranges" in the configuration dialog box option flags tab under "Command Line Search Options."

It is fixed. I did indeed miss something. Sorry, folks.

--Steve (Edited on 2/24/06.)



Someone tell me I'm missing something...

In BW6, the developers added an option to make BibleWorks remember the command line verse range you typed (e.g., Micah 6:6-8). It looks like BW7 has amnesia again. As soon as I do anything, Micah 6:6-8 turns into Micah 6:6.

This makes me nuts when I'm working with a passage for preaching. If you want to add a version - the verse range it gone.

Switch to browse mode and back - the verse range is gone.

Go back to your previous search and return - the verse range is gone.

I thought it was going be be fixed. We were told that it was a simple change but too big a change for a patch.

It looks like the bug isn't fixed and the workaround is still gone.

Did I just miss the switch? Please tell me I did! I don't want to have to choose between BW7 and this very important usability feature.

pastor-steve
02-16-2006, 05:12 AM
Please ignore this post. I missed the configuration option. BW did what they said they would do.

Here are some comments in the forum on this issue from the past:

http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=591&postcount=36 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=591&postcount=36)
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=631&postcount=43 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=631&postcount=43)
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=632&postcount=44 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=632&postcount=44)
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=863&postcount=72 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=863&postcount=72)
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1123&postcount=91 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1123&postcount=91)
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1181&postcount=97 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1181&postcount=97)
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1183&postcount=99 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1183&postcount=99)
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1335&postcount=102 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1335&postcount=102)
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1351&postcount=104 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1351&postcount=104)

This whole thread is about the issue (which seems to annoy many people):
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307)

Here are the ones that led me to expect this to be fixed in BW7 if not sooner:

http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1207&postcount=1 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1207&postcount=1)
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2321&postcount=12 (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2321&postcount=12)

The latter is where Mike Bushell said he would do his best to fix it in a patch or in BW7. That's when I stopped complaining. But it isn't fixed and that's frustrating. I've been submitting this bug since BW4.

Maybe BW needs some people who aren't power users on the beta test list. I'm just a pastor trying to use this tool for my sermon preparation. I preach on a pericope each week and I don't like my text divided into arbitrary verses when I do my analysis, but I'm not enough of a Hebrew or greek scholar to have the English completely off the screen. Working with verse ranges just seems so logical to me! (Besides, verse numbering is not divinely inspired!)

Please don't tell me it's not supposed to work this way. If it's not supposed to work this way, it shouldn't accept verse ranges from the command line or it should pop up a "This isn't supported" warning when I do it.

Disappointed,

Steve

MGVH
02-16-2006, 10:07 AM
Well, I thought I had an answer...
BW7 does have the very nice new tab feature so that you can flip between up to 12 Results/Browse windows.
I usually am viewing BGT, NET, and NRS. I set a verse range in one tab, went to another tab, and when I came back, the verse range was gone and I was back to a single verse.
That being noted, I can set up a text in one tab in single version mode, and the full text will always be there in that tab.

pastor-steve
02-23-2006, 03:10 PM
Please ignore this post. I missed the configuration option in BW7 and customer support assumed I knew about it when I contacted them. The problem is fixed and I will not be returning BW7. Sorry everyone. (Edited on 2/24/06.)

--Steve

Despite, Mike Bushell's "We'll do out best to fix this in BW7" (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2321&postcount=12) from November 2004 the programming staff has just informed me that this is a "feature" of BibleWorks. "It was never meant to work this way." I don't see how a four-time paying customer (BW4, 5, 6, 7 + BDAG, HALOT) is supposed to know that. The verse range feature has been in BW since I started buying it in BW4. There was not note that it was an unsupported feature. I expected that since it was a usability bug it would be fixed, but the feature didn't work then and it doesn't work now. (This is extra ridiculous with the new tabbed system. Click a tab, lose your verse range.)

I hope there are enough researchers and academics to support future versions, because I'm going to try to find a program that supports exegesis on a range of verses without my having to retype the range every time I do anything. That's what we textual preachers do.

My BW 7 will be in the mail bakc to you next week.

BW: A little advice, guys. Don't add something unless you're going to make it work.

Signing off,

Steve

Roger Horning
02-23-2006, 08:08 PM
Steve:

I may be missing something but I just entered a verse range, switched tabs, brows mode, etc and the verse range is still there. Did they fix it?

This is what is on my screen after I switch tabs, brows mode, etc.

Roger
http://www.evfcoc.org/youthfiles/screenshot2.jpg

tfjern
02-23-2006, 08:12 PM
Steve, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Admittingly it IS an annoyance, though. But having to type in any Bible verses is an even bigger annoyance. The time has come for BW to incorporate speech recognition into the product, whereby you enter Bible verses by simple voice commands. I've been using Dragon Naturally Speaking 8.0, and it works like a charm (most of the time, that is). There is no reason why this function can't be including in future versions of BW. Mike, get to work on this, OK?

Adelphos
02-23-2006, 09:26 PM
This makes me nuts when I'm working with a passage for preaching. If you want to add a version - the verse range it gone.

Steve,

If you open a parallel version window, for example --

type "p kjv nas" without the quote on the cl and this will open the parallel version window with these two versions, and now you can keep your verse range in force since it defaults to browse mode for each version.

Would this solve your problem?

MBushell
02-23-2006, 11:03 PM
The setting in question can be found by selecting Tools | Options from the main window menu and then going to the Option Falgs | Command Line Search Options and checking the box labeled "Remember command line ranges". This will provide partial relief to your complaint. It functions the same way as the same option worked in BibleWorks 6.

The Browse Window was designed originally to work in two modes: (1) a single verse in as many versions as you want and (2) a single version with the entire context of the verse. In response to a user request a long time ago we added the ability to temporarily display multiple verses when in multiple-version mode. In response to yet another user request some time later we added an optional setting to make the verse range persistent in some circumstances (some of which you mentioned in your list). That setting is still there. We knew when we added it that it would not satisfy eveyone. I must tell you that complaints like this are very discouraging because we do try very hard to implement user requests. Then we get complaints, some times rather angry complainst, because we did not carry the change as far as some people wanted. We often make changes to the program knowing that the basic change is fundamentally incompatible with the way te interface is designed. We make them optional because of that incompatibility. This is an example of that kind of situation. This is not a bug.

If you would think about the way the program works you would realize that what you want really isn't fully possible. There are literally hundreds of BibleWorks events that cause the Browse Window to display verses. They all assume that the user wants to look at a particular verse, not a verse range. We can put a kludge in that causes this range to persist in a limited range of operations, but having it persist permanently every time that verse is added to the the Browse Window is a very bad idea. We tried it and got a ton of complaints. Just try to remember that the Browse Window is not a document window. It is a transient area for the display of information from searches. Trying to turn it into what you want is not possible using our present interface. Believe me, I ahve tried very hard but I kept running into circumstances with undesirable side effects. It is possible to have the range persist but you would want the range reset automatically when certain other operations display text in the Browse window. Deciding which of the hundreds of such operations reset the range is a nightmare and whatever we did we would get complaints.

If you want the text that you are working on always visible, stick it in an editor window.

Having said this I can add the persistence value to the information saved with the tabs. I know you are returning the product, but perhaps this will benefit other users. I will pass this note to our service personel in case you are beyond the 30 day return window. They will cheerfully return your money. If you are not happy with the program we don't want your money. We try very hard to have the attitude of servants, which is what we want to be, but we have come to learn over the years that we cannot please everyone no matter how hard we try.

We do ask for patience during the post release period. The tech support staff is stretched very thin and will be under a lot of stress for at least the next month or so. Remember that they are brethren just trying to help you out. Please cut them some slack.

Mike

Harold6
02-24-2006, 09:53 AM
Mike,

I just purchased BW6 last August and I am eagerly anticipating getting BW7. I just wanted to write this note in this thread to encourage you. I for one appreciate all the work you guys are doing. BW is a fantastic program and for what it does, if the price was a couple of hundred dollars more, it would still be reasonable.

You can't please everybody! Even Jesus couldn't do that! Keep up the good work!

Pastor Harold Miller, Jr.
New Hope Baptist Church
Covington, GA

Milhous
02-24-2006, 11:59 AM
I hate to beat a dead horse, but I am morbidly curious.

I can't seem to reproduce what Steve is agitated about. Can somebody give me directions to show me an especially agregious example of this supposed "bug". [I have "Remember command line ranges" checked.]

Steve's passion on the subject makes me worry that I am missing out by not getting to be upset also. ;)

One more request (although this may be the same question): Why would one NOT have "Remember command line ranges" checked? What is the disadvantage.

Thanks,
~Milhous~

MBushell
02-24-2006, 12:07 PM
"Remember command line ranges" is off by default so you must have turned it on. All it does basically is allow you to type a range, go forwards and backwards a verse (and similar things) and have the original range preserved. Without the option set when you returned to the original verse it would only display one verse. Obviously you don't want the range remembered forever so some actions, like a new command line search will reset it and it will only remember one range for one verse. Most people are not bothered by the way it works and the workaround will satisfy most people. We will change the tabs to remember the range though unless there turn out to be unexpected side effects.

Mike

MGVH
02-24-2006, 02:28 PM
In an earlier post, I had noted that I was unable to preserve the verse range when switching between tabs. MY problem was that I had forgotten to switch that flag option to have the ranges remembered when I moved up to BW7.
I think this works quite well, and is an excellent compromise.
(It may be nice, though, to let each tab behave independently in this regard.)

vr8ce
02-24-2006, 11:54 PM
I must tell you that complaints like this are very discouraging because we do try very hard to implement user requests. Then we get complaints, some times rather angry complainst, because we did not carry the change as far as some people wanted. We often make changes to the program knowing that the basic change is fundamentally incompatible with the way te interface is designed. We make them optional because of that incompatibility. This is an example of that kind of situation. This is not a bug.
Steve's stated discouragement is that it's disappointing to wait a year-and-a-half for an upgrade that was supposed to include a (major) change you wanted and find out that it's not only not in there, but it's not considered a priority ("it's not a bug").

However, your wording was much less definitive than he indicated (you said in his referenced message "I will try...", etc.), and you've always made it plain that it's extremely unlikely to work as some of us want it to. So I can't say I agree with Steve's take on things. I have, however, expressed myself so poorly as to make others assume I was angry about something when I wasn't, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. :)


If you would think about the way the program works you would realize that what you want really isn't fully possible. There are literally hundreds of BibleWorks events that cause the Browse Window to display verses.
Well, even as someone familiar with software development, I'll say I didn't even know there were "hundreds of ... events" (or have any reason to, really). So thanks for the info! You learn something new every day.


They all assume that the user wants to look at a particular verse, not a verse range. <snip> Just try to remember that the Browse Window is not a document window. It is a transient area for the display of information from searches.
As the infamous Dane once said, "there's the rub". We do want to look at a verse range, so that's an erroneous assumption (today, anyway, perhaps it wasn't originally, although the frequent requests for this would indicate it hasn't been a valid assumption for several years). As is the latter statement; this difference of outlook on the Browser window is, IMO, one of the reasons for much of the resistance to the new UI. For me, the Browse window is not a "transient area", it is the main area of focus. I don't know that I consider it a "document window", either, but it's definitely not "transient".

So, it can't be done without redoing the interface. Is redoing it feasible (ever, obviously not in 7)? If not, just say so ("we're not going to redo the interface; this problem is never going away"). Most of us can live with it either way.


Believe me, I ahve tried very hard
Yes, you have. And we appreciate it. Well, those of us who still own the product, anyway. :D


Having said this I can add the persistence value to the information saved with the tabs.
Yes, please!

Thanks to everyone at BW for their hard work lately, and for the foreseeable future.

Vince

gelavalon
02-25-2006, 12:05 AM
There is no software program without its quirks and shortcomings, but having been with BW1, 3, 4, and now 7, I appreciate the job Mike and his team have done through the years. I have yet to see another software team respond as quickly to complaints, suggestions, and bug fixes! Thanks guys!

pastor-steve
02-25-2006, 02:55 AM
:eek: Apparently my eyes are going!

When I posted my first message and when I wrote to customer support, I had missed the check box. I looked for it and missed it - a couple of times. I guess I assumed I was right when I didn't hear anything from anyone.

I was upset about nothing. And customer support must have assumed that my head was screwed on right that day and that I knew "remember verse ranges" was there.

"Remember verse ranges" is what I wanted. I don't need more than that. Thank you for it! Mike, you did exactly what you said you would do.

I would like to hit my time rewind button and erase everything, but only God exists outside of time...

Thank you! I will not be returning anything, which is actually a relief because when I went to investigate the competition, I wasn't all that excited about the prospect.

Again, 1000 apologies. I was wrong, wrong, wrong. :(

Steve

(Signature deleted to avoid associating my poor church with this thread. :o )

Joan Korte
02-25-2006, 03:12 PM
Steve, His mercy endures forever. When we miss it and realize it, as I have for all the world to see in some of my posts, we end up back on track. God Bless, Joan