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Ben Spackman
02-09-2006, 10:25 PM
I've sent these to Mike Bushell (haven't heard back, but I assume he got them.)

I held off during the beta-testing. Some of these I hope can make it in to post-release v. 7, and others maybe into the far-flung future of BW8 or 9.

I held off on these while the major things were being worked out.

1) Hebrew/Aramaic/ NW Inscriptions database.No one has this but Acccordance (http://www.accordancebible.com/modules/details.php?ID=137), and I'd like to see it with BW's robust
searching system. ( A few other Old Testament people I've
talked to expressed some disappointment at what they perceived
as a comparative lack of new OT resources in this one. When I
asked what they wanted to see, most replied the NW Semitic
inscriptions database, Jastrow (http://www.hendrickson.com/html/product/38603.acad.html?category=academic), or #2 below. I would love to
see any and all of these, but particularly the NW Semitic
inscritions database.)

2) More robust importer, one that allows us to import the
Amarna texts, Ugaritic etc. (Both of those are available
electronically and free on the web. It's a shame we can't take
advantage of them) It would need to handle lacunae, and other
such textual variances, as found in the QSM database.

3) Modify the word list manager to have a description box
under each word list, like in the verse list manager.

4)Notes in the editor- Is it possible to program more than one
version to pop up? Sometimes it happens anyway, following the
pop-up settings in general, instead of the link setting.

5) How difficult would it be to have two note directories both
open and linked to the verse, one in the user notes area and
one floating? That way, one could easily see what needs to be
copied in which direction between two sets of notes.

6)Would it be possible to highlight the chosen verse when you
get there by clicking on something in the resource summary,
particularly in grammars? (It happens in lexicons. In denser
grammars like Gesenius, it can be hard to locate the verse in
question if the link can't open to it directly, as happens
when the chapter is not longer than the screen, ie. no
scrolling is possible.)

7) In the search window, after a search has been run, you can
right click and copy verse to the editor. Might there be a way
to get those into the editor or notes with a link
automatically created, so one doesn't need to link a copied
list of references manually?

8) Ability to use colored text as a search filter/limit, ie.
"limit search to text in red." That way, one could search
solely on words of Jesus or direct speech or E or whatever one
has marked.

wezlo
02-10-2006, 07:46 AM
BW7 is VERY broken under wine in linux. While I always hope for a native port (I keep saying, if you port BW to QT you can create binaries for win/lin/mac and you'd be rocking), I know your resources are limited. Is there any way you can make direct contact with codeweavers or winehq and have them debug future BW releases against winelib. They are helpful folk - Codeweavers did just put out an offer to make ANY app work with cxoffice that they got a license for.

Guys, please take them up on it, even in the buggy state I know that BW7 rocks and I don't want to return it because i can't use it!

jakemccarty
02-10-2006, 07:44 PM
Ben,

Thanks for your post--I always appreciate having another philologist to on this board. I too have sent Mike several of your suggestions, even providing links to Accordance (which offers some of these modules) and to BS at UCLA who did the parsing. I inquired later, asking about the possibility of including these modules and the response I got suggested that he hadn't really looked into yet. :(

I think the main problem is that most of the users use Greek much more often and addressing that problem is another issue. I graduated from a seminary that has a very strong reputation for Greek and Hebrew, but very, very few of the students were able to read Hebrew well after the program and pretty much gave up.

1. I think that a major priority should be to include Jastrow. As it is, unless one has had a fairly significant amount of Targumic Aramaic, the BW platform does not help that much. "Biblical Aramaic" is one thing, but T. Jonathan is quite another--it'd be like expecting someone to be able to translate a fairly tough book of the Bible without a concordance. Since it's not under copyright, I can't imagine why it's not included. Being able to access some of the most important translations/paraphrases of the HB is a sin qua non of responsible study.:confused:

2. As far as the NW inscriptions, I would also like to seem them on BW very much, especially since it is already on Accordance. But I think it would be important to add a link to InscriptiFact to actually look at the inscriptions themselves. As F. Cross said, "no real epigraphist would trust the drawings of another" (though I'm more of a dilettante!). As I mentioned earlier however, dealing with the Iron-Age Hebrew inscriptions is water that many evangelicals/conservatives/fundamentalists don't like to tread in because of some of the implications they raise (K. Ajrud, K. Qom, etc.). :eek:

3. I love your idea on important the Ugaritic texts. But again, I think it would be important to have it linked to Inscriptifact in order to address the variant transcriptions. In this respect, I think it would be important to be able to parse and vocalize texts and to incorporate those into the database (rather than separate notes). DULOT (and CAD) are probably really, really long shots. :)

4. In addition to your suggestions, I think it would also be important to include the parsed Mishnah. It is already in electronic format and as Golb would say: Tan. Hb is essential for understanding the development of the language and for reading the DSS. And to that, I think it would be helpful to have an English translation of the DSS (Vermes). As you've probably noticed, there are some severe parsing problems (esp with the Hiphils).

5. I also think JM Hb grammar would be important. It too is in electronic format already.

All these suggestions seem quite reasonable, especially considering the strength of the resources available in Greek. Of course I'm sure I'll never see DULOT, CAD (or CDA even), Bauer, Tropper (w/ Pardee's notes of course!), TDOT, Huhn historical HB grammar, DNSI, and Renz and Rollig 4 volume set.

BTW: I still have not recieved my BW7, but what tradition is the Aramaic pointed in?

Ben Spackman
02-10-2006, 10:56 PM
Excellent suggestions (the opinion of one dilettante to another :) )

I assume, as do you, that most users are focused on the Greek of the NT, which is natural for Christians to do. (I've been reading a bit about Marcion recently, and everything I find mentions how modern Christianity has plenty of pseudo-Marcionites who reject the OT in practice.)

The targums are all vocalized in Tiberian. I believe the CAL folks provide them this way, but I wish we had the option for Babylonian vocalization.

Jonhenry
02-11-2006, 09:12 AM
It would be great if the references to the Apostolic Fathers were hyperlinked just like the Scripture references. I was going through my new BDF module yesterday and noticed that one has to manually go to those addresses.

Michael Hanel
02-11-2006, 09:33 AM
It would be great if the references to the Apostolic Fathers were hyperlinked just like the Scripture references. I was going through my new BDF module yesterday and noticed that one has to manually go to those addresses.

Don't forget adding links for Josephus and Philo too :)

Jonhenry
02-11-2006, 09:42 PM
I put in my suggestion to the BW staff about having fully interactive hyperlinks for Philo, Josephus and ANF in BDAG, BDF etc. It would be a big timesaver for those of us who spend a lot of time in that corner of NT research. I'm sure they're swamped right now, but maybe they can get around to it sometime. :o

gcalton
02-13-2006, 10:00 AM
I know they are busy as well, but at a future time I would love to see this concordance/lexicon added. It is great for word studies as well as NT research and exegesis. :D

Rengstorf, Karl Heinrich
Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, Unabridged Study Edition


In Christ,
garrell

Jonhenry
02-13-2006, 10:20 AM
Here is a note from the BW staff regarding the suggestion I made above. I think they are very busy working on many of the items mentioned by users on this forum.


Dear Jonathan,

Thank you very much for your suggestion. We'll implement it as soon as
feasible. We'll need to ask your patience, because we have a lengthy list
of good suggestions to implement and not very many implementors, but we'll
get to it as soon as we can.

Please continue to submit suggestions. BibleWorks is what it is largely
because of the excellent suggestions from its customer community.

jakemccarty
02-13-2006, 10:22 AM
Ben:

There we have precisely what we've been talking about. We are the only ones interested in seeing these HB resources made available, and I don't think $100 would cover the cost of production--even if it is already available in electronic format or is not copywritten. Such is our plight as philologists. I find it interesting that the only LDS on the board is willing to draw connections to Marcion. (As an aside, I took Church History at seminary and we were quick to vilify Marcion, but I've never really read him--only small snipets--so all I know about him is that he was a pretty bad dude with good intentions.)

I was wondering if it would be possible to create a link to Accordance... I think that will be our only hope of seeing these basic resources in computer format.

jdarlack
02-13-2006, 10:26 AM
I know they are busy as well, but at a future time I would love to see this concordance/lexicon added. . . Rengstorf, Karl Heinrich, Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, Unabridged Study EditionPardon my ignorance, but what is the value of this concordance when the Greek text of Josephus in BibleWorks is fully parsed and searches on words are done in a matter of seconds? I'm not asking this to be "smart," but I'd like to know it's value over a grammatically tagged and searchable text so that I could pass the information on to fellow students. I have told people in the past that even though they have the tagged LXX that Hatch & Redpath is still worthwhile (given that it lists the Hebrew glosses for all Greek words in the LXX), but now that the Tov/Polak database is available in BW, even Hatch & Redpath is now "redundant" for someone who owns version 7. I'm the last person to throw out books, but usually I try to avoid concordances unless they have more information than where to locate a word.

Joshua Luna
02-13-2006, 12:41 PM
Detailed Statistics/lexeme summary based on the parsing information in the morphological databases. Something like this (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5518&postcount=6). BW already generates the information, just a matter of presentation for quicker/easier analysis.

gcalton
02-13-2006, 02:37 PM
I have used this study edition for about a year now and have found it to be a great value in studing, researching, word studies, phrase studies, siting for research. It is a valuable tool. The best way I know how to explain is to tell you what others have said, they say it much better than myself. I have found this to be a great resource for understanding metaphors that were used in the 1st Century. I think this would be an asset to anyone who uses it. I was just giving an idea for future developement. Hope this is helpful.

:D
Brill is pleased to present this Study Edition of the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, including the Namenwörterbuch zu Flavius Josephus, in two handy volumes. We expect it will prove to be a valuable resource for scholars and students alike.

The significance of the works of Flavius Josephus, the 1st-century Jewish historian, as sources for our understanding of biblical history and of the political history of Palestine under Roman rule, can hardly be overestimated.
This Study Edition is an unabridged version of the widely acclaimed concordance to the works of Josephus, originally published in four volumes.
This concordance has since gained a prominent place as an indispensable reference tool for anyone involved in the study of biblical literature and of Roman Palestine.

jdarlack
02-14-2006, 01:28 PM
I have used this study edition for about a year now and have found it to be a great value in studing, researching, word studies, phrase studies, siting for research. It is a valuable tool. The best way I know how to explain is to tell you what others have said, they say it much better than myself. I have found this to be a great resource for understanding metaphors that were used in the 1st Century. I think this would be an asset to anyone who uses it. I was just giving an idea for future developement. Hope this is helpful.Thanks George for the reply. I've used Rengstorf concordance myself, but now I prefer to use the tagged text available in BibleWorks. (My laptop is smaller than even the study edition of Rengstorf (which weighs several pounds)!:D

David Kummerow
02-14-2006, 08:29 PM
Well, you're not the only ones. I also would dearly love to see all of the resources you mention in BW. Actually, it is only from your posts above that I became aware that this isn't really being worked on (I only intermittently read the forums and post). Having the inscriptions in BW for Hebrew is in some ways similar to having Josephus etc for Greek--both are needed, but Greek users already have Josephus and now Philo. Surely there are others who need more Hebrew resources. Having just the text would be a fine start, i.e. a morphology version of the insriptions like what accompanies Josephus would be unnessary for a start--let's just have access to the texts in BW!

So I add my vote for:

1. Hebrew inscriptions
2. J-M Hebrew grammar
3. Jastrow
4. van der Merwe, Naudé, and Kroeze (I'm sure this also is already digital)
5. Westermann & Jenni's lexicon
6. DCH
7. DNWSI
8. WIVU database
9. BHQ
10. English translation of DSS

If one is working with Hebrew, all of these are basic and indispensable texts and resources. I'd be willing to pay an unlock fee for all of the above.

Regards,
David Kummerow.



Ben:

There we have precisely what we've been talking about. We are the only ones interested in seeing these HB resources made available, and I don't think $100 would cover the cost of production--even if it is already available in electronic format or is not copywritten. Such is our plight as philologists. I find it interesting that the only LDS on the board is willing to draw connections to Marcion. (As an aside, I took Church History at seminary and we were quick to vilify Marcion, but I've never really read him--only small snipets--so all I know about him is that he was a pretty bad dude with good intentions.)

I was wondering if it would be possible to create a link to Accordance... I think that will be our only hope of seeing these basic resources in computer format.

jakemccarty
02-15-2006, 10:18 AM
Well, you're not the only ones. I also would dearly love to see all of the resources you mention in BW. Actually, it is only from your posts above that I became aware that this isn't really being worked on (I only intermittently read the forums and post). Having the inscriptions in BW for Hebrew is in some ways similar to having Josephus etc for Greek--both are needed, but Greek users already have Josephus and now Philo. Surely there are others who need more Hebrew resources. Having just the text would be a fine start, i.e. a morphology version of the insriptions like what accompanies Josephus would be unnessary for a start--let's just have access to the texts in BW!

So I add my vote for:

1. Hebrew inscriptions
2. J-M Hebrew grammar
3. Jastrow
4. van der Merwe, Naudé, and Kroeze (I'm sure this also is already digital)
5. Westermann & Jenni's lexicon
6. DCH
7. DNWSI
8. WIVU database
9. BHQ
10. English translation of DSS

If one is working with Hebrew, all of these are basic and indispensable texts and resources. I'd be willing to pay an unlock fee for all of the above.

Regards,
David Kummerow.


Thanks for your enthusiasm! The Hebrew Inscriptions have already been parsed by Professor William Schniedewind of UCLA (NELC) and are already available on Accordance. He is open (I think) to licensing his work to Bibleworks, so the process should be very simple. The problem, however, is that I don't know how much awareness there is of Hebrew inscriptions. Now, as to its comparison with Josephus, I would argue that it is more important--it is the only significant Iron Age corpus of Hebrew. The Context of Scripture on the other hand would be more akin to Josephus and Philo--important, very important--in fact indispensable for responsible NT study--but still not quite as important as NW inscriptions would be to OT study.

The J-M is already available through Logos and because it is already in electronic format.

And Jastrow... it's free and we don't really have an Aramaic lexicon. Earlier posts that I've seen asking for translations.... belie the actual usefulness of the Targums without a dictionary. And as far as I'm aware there are only a few schools that even teach Targumic Aramaic beyond the most elementary of levels (Hebrew Union, U Chicago, Harvard, CUA).

I too think that an English translation of the DSS would be most helpful. In fact, I also think it would be necessary to include Qimron's grammar in it. Otherwise, how would one be able to understand what's happening with the grammar. I had the awesome privilege of studying Qumranic Hebrew with one of the world's foremost experts on Hebrew grammar and the DSS (P. Kyle McCarter) and the grammar of the DSS has many idiosyncrasies. Without a grammar--well... one has to put things together with HALOT.

Ben and Dave:

J. Huhnergard has been writing a historical Hebrew grammar this past year--the only of its kind--based primarily upon the Lambdin's work. You both have probably seen the ubiquitous notes at one time or another. I couldn't imagine a more helpful resource for Bibleworks than being able to understand the historical morphology of the language. It will allow people to be able to speak with precision about Hebrew and to be able to address issues of source criticism etc... from a more informed perspective. Is JEDP simply the theory of Wellhausen based upon usages of the divine name and later priestly redactions or does it have (or not) merit with the development of the language? Hopefully arguing from the language will partially obviate hackneyed and trite answers (both in support and against) theories of source criticism.


I'm not sure what DCH refers to... do you mean Dictionary of Classical Hebrew? I haven't been too impressed with it thus far. It has no focus on philology... unfortunately, and seems to flatten Hebrew out a bit too much for my tastes.

Ben Spackman
02-15-2006, 03:46 PM
That makes three of us.

I don't think the market will support all of these, though. For example, I've never used DCH, and I don't think I could pay $100+ for casual use on BW. I think the WIVU database is stuck with the SESB, and we know all about the licensing problems with that.

I didn't think BHQ had appeared yet in more than one fascicle, and I haven't paid attention to the details. How does the text differ from BHS other than in the apparatus?


Here's how I would prioritize these.

1) Hebrew/Aramaic Inscriptions. Most basic, most important. The Accordance site hints at an updated version (http://www.accordancebible.com/modules/details.php?ID=137), "Future upgrades are planned to include all major Northwest Semitic inscriptions (e.g., Aramaic, Phoenician, Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, etc.)" I don't mind waiting for an updated version, but I think this should take priority. (If this comes, DNSI (http://www.brill.nl/m_catalogue_sub6_id21153.htm)would be useful indeed, but it's probably cost prohibitive at the list price of $594 US.)

2) Jastrow (http://www.hendrickson.com/html/product/38603.acad.html?category=academic). This would be even more useful if the Mishnah also appears, since it covers that as well as Targumic material.

3) DSS translations. These are alread available one way through the DSS Study Edition, but I think the QSM module would be more useful and appeal to a broader cross-section of users if translations were available. (It would be nice to see the grammar, but I don't know that the appeal is broad enough. Also, I've heard criticism of it by Norman Golb, that Qimron doesn't recognize enough variation and diachronic change in the DSS, but takes the whole corpus as normative.)

4) Jouon is available elsewhere, but I believe an updated print edition is in the works. That was the word several months ago, anyway.

5) Jenni/Westermann (https://www.eisenbrauns.com/ECOM/_1QG0XJWDH.HTM).

I would love to see a historical hebrew grammar from Huehnergard. I sat in on a day of Comp. Semitic with him, and got a copy of his Comp. Sem. 140 notes/textbook. Are those his notes?

David Kummerow
02-15-2006, 06:14 PM
Thanks for your enthusiasm! The Hebrew Inscriptions have already been parsed by Professor William Schniedewind of UCLA (NELC) and are already available on Accordance. He is open (I think) to licensing his work to Bibleworks, so the process should be very simple. The problem, however, is that I don't know how much awareness there is of Hebrew inscriptions. Now, as to its comparison with Josephus, I would argue that it is more important--it is the only significant Iron Age corpus of Hebrew. The Context of Scripture on the other hand would be more akin to Josephus and Philo--important, very important--in fact indispensable for responsible NT study--but still not quite as important as NW inscriptions would be to OT study.
I very much agree and would argue the same. Further, for the linguistic study of Hebrew a larger corpus is needed at times--hence, also, the usefulness of DNWSI.




I too think that an English translation of the DSS would be most helpful. In fact, I also think it would be necessary to include Qimron's grammar in it. Otherwise, how would one be able to understand what's happening with the grammar. I had the awesome privilege of studying Qumranic Hebrew with one of the world's foremost experts on Hebrew grammar and the DSS (P. Kyle McCarter) and the grammar of the DSS has many idiosyncrasies. Without a grammar--well... one has to put things together with HALOT.

Now this is an interesting point. Having Qimron's grammar alongside the texts would be great. The same reasons for having, say, Waltke and O'Connor etc for BH apply, mutatis mutandis, for the inclusion of Qimron. I haven't purchased a print copy yet anyway. While criticism may be levelled at it (so Ben's post above), it still is a standard work of reference which as such should be attempted to be made available. The usefulness of having texts and grammars in the same software cannot be overstated I feel.

But then if we finally get the inscriptions, some grammar alongside might be useful too: Schüle; etc. (I'm dreaming now, of course...)




J. Huhnergard has been writing a historical Hebrew grammar this past year--the only of its kind--based primarily upon the Lambdin's work. You both have probably seen the ubiquitous notes at one time or another. I couldn't imagine a more helpful resource for Bibleworks than being able to understand the historical morphology of the language. It will allow people to be able to speak with precision about Hebrew and to be able to address issues of source criticism etc... from a more informed perspective. Is JEDP simply the theory of Wellhausen based upon usages of the divine name and later priestly redactions or does it have (or not) merit with the development of the language? Hopefully arguing from the language will partially obviate hackneyed and trite answers (both in support and against) theories of source criticism.
No, I haven't seen any copies as I live, work, and (still) study in Australia. But I would be very interested in reading it when it is published (or before if I somehow come across it). I generally try to obtain all of Huhnergard's work as it relates to BH. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "the only of its kind", as Sperber has an historical grammar from memory. I'm actually very interested in what he exactly does: is it purely a diachronic description of the language, or does he also address dialectic and diglossia issues? And does he perhaps address the issue of scribal updating of the language of the text?



I'm not sure what DCH refers to... do you mean Dictionary of Classical Hebrew? I haven't been too impressed with it thus far. It has no focus on philology... unfortunately, and seems to flatten Hebrew out a bit too much for my tastes.
Yes, that's what I meant. It doesn't entirely please me also, particularly the uncritical approach taken to word classes. I like how later hebrew is included. But what I most like is (a) that all occurances of a particular lexical item are included (apart from items like ו etc); and (b) something of the constructional environment is included, eg occurances of randomly chosen אָח are listed under <SUBJ>, <OBJ>, <CSTR>, <APP>, <ADJ>, <PREP>, and <COLL>. Synonyms and antonyms are also listed.



I didn't think BHQ had appeared yet in more than one fascicle, and I haven't paid attention to the details. How does the text differ from BHS other than in the apparatus?
Only the Megilloth is done as far as I know. I put it down for completeness, not really expecting to have it until it is done entirely. But then since it is from the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, maybe there'll be problems with liscencing as with the apparatus for BHS. The apparatus is much better from my look at it, and each book has an accompanying introduction explaining textual matters etc. But as far as the text itself differing, I haven't paid that much attention to it yet as the books completed are the Megilloth and for Hebrew class I'm teaching Genesis. If I was doing Ruth, however, I'd definitely be using this text.

David Kummerow.

DaveWinter
02-17-2006, 10:21 AM
Per Ben's counsel, I too would like to add my voice to those here who would like to see a NW Semitic Inscriptions database add-on. I've been using it extensively, and have found that some of the in-print grammars (mostly Gogel) lack a quick concordance that a computerized database would quite easily facilitate. I'm not a Mac person, so Accordance is out.

I've enjoyed your discussions about the feasibility of such a project, and I'd like to assist in any way that I can in order to realize such a database. For me, NW Sem. Inscriptions are so much fun, and so much more applicable to OT study than most folks think (Ketef Hinnom inscriptions especially!).

Please contact me if I can assist in any way.

Joshua Luna
02-17-2006, 01:29 PM
Until a NW Inscriptions database comes online I would suggest G.I. Davies, "Ancient Hebrew Inscriptions". It lacks the grammatical information of Gogel's "A Grammar of Epigraphic Hebrew" but it has more texts and a nice concordance and references to journals covering the text. I have found it very useful. Of course a digital database with morphological information would be great for BW I have found Davies' volume to be worthwhile.

All the Hebrew Bible suggestions so far have been excellent. Keep them up. Maybe we can become a vocal minority :D

jakemccarty
02-18-2006, 12:24 PM
David:

Hey nice to hear from you (we met in Baltimore and Philly)! How are applications going? I know this is a stressful time of year... a few more weeks and you should begin to hear back. I think we had 32 applications for one, maybe two, spots--so cross your fingers. (BTW: Students do not see applications nor are we solicited for advice).

In addition to Davies I think the best overall work is done by Renz and Roelling.

So among the HB aficionados would we say that collectively our vote goes towards and then we can worry about the other stuff.

1). NW Inscriptions
2). Jastow

Ben brought up a very good point about JM. If it's getting updated, it would be better to wait.

I want to add one caveat: I think it would be absolutely necessary to create a link to the WSRP through NW inscriptions. Although they don't have a lot of material online yet, being able to access 20 super high resolution pictures of the various inscriptions while working with the material will aid immensely. In addition, don't you think it would be helpful to include a script chart as well? Perhaps the pages from Renz and Rollig would be the best (if it could be licensed) or the script chart of F. M. Cross in the Festschrift to Albright? I’m sure the latter is out of copyright by now.

Now is anybody else interested in historical/linguistic study of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament on this board? I know that most people that use BW are actively involved in Church ministry and attended seminary... and so you may be a little unaware of the Iron Age corpus of Hebrew. If you don’t immediately know what inscriptions such as K. ‘Ajrud and Kirbet el-Qom mean try to find out more about them. Essentially they say (or could say “Yahweh and his Asherah”—sounds a little pagan huh? Imagine being able to study the Kings and to be able to use the resources that date to 8th century (writ in stone) rather than a 6th century redaction and to be able to discuss the depravity of the Israelites and what the prophets were inveighing against with provenanced and dated material. Or maybe you’ve wondered (intelligently) if the prophetic corpus is a bit reactionary (perhaps like some modern day self appointed prophet who likes to unfairly criticize every Christian leader)? Now you can address these questions with data! Or maybe you’ve heard about all the talk that Yahweh had a consort (e.g. wife) in ancient Israel much like Baal? Disturbed? Well then you’re obligated to research the issue… WITH NW INSCRIPTIONS! I don’t think having a dictionary for the Targums is a hard sell.

Please chime in if you are even semi-interested in historical/linguistic study of the Old Testament and ancient Israel. So far we've got 5 BW's users that qualify as such... surely there's more!

Jonhenry
02-18-2006, 02:58 PM
I'm primarily a NT guy when it comes to starting points -- I was glad to get BDF, etc. However, I feel that everyone, Hebrew and NT students, need to be aware of the OT background such as one would find in the inscriptions, etc. If one is to understand the covenants (faithfulness, unfaithfulness, punishment), the plight and deliverance of Israel, etc. then there has to be knowledge of the ancient context. If I am going to preach the Bible narratively, then I must be fully current on the "news" from that time. I'm writing this to reassure the OT scholars on this site (who have in other places hinted that NT scholars are Marcionites) that NT scholarship keenly feels the need for information from other eras besides the Hellenistic/Roman. Ugaritic discoveries are not irelevant to the understanding of the same Psalms which Jesus knew and loved.

JAMiller
02-18-2006, 03:15 PM
BW7 is VERY broken under wine in linux. While I always hope for a native port (I keep saying, if you port BW to QT you can create binaries for win/lin/mac and you'd be rocking), I know your resources are limited. Is there any way you can make direct contact with codeweavers or winehq and have them debug future BW releases against winelib. They are helpful folk - Codeweavers did just put out an offer to make ANY app work with cxoffice that they got a license for.

Guys, please take them up on it, even in the buggy state I know that BW7 rocks and I don't want to return it because i can't use it!

I'll second this notion. With Macs now moving to x86 architecture and a fair number of people on these boards using Macs, porting BW to QT would be immensely helpful for those of us who wish to depart from the Windows scene. Also, thanks wezlo, because I had been thinking of buying BW 7 and running it under Darwine which is porting Wine to Mac OSX-x86, but this will inevitably encounter the same problems.

Please, Mike, consider this. I remember reading a bit ago that you do not want to compete with Accordance and that you have a good relationship with the people there, but each program has its strengths and weaknesses and if BW won't work on a Mac or under (Dar)Wine, I may have to drop it and switch to Accordance. I would rather run both--BW especially for English translations and Accordance for specific scholarly modules unavailable elsewhere (e.g., the Hebrew text of Ben Sira).

Ben Spackman
02-18-2006, 03:32 PM
NT scholars are Marcionites

I didn't mean for it to be taken so harshly. My apologies.

Rather, I had come across two references that same day that resonated with my perception of a predominant NT focus.


Since rejection of the OT was an essential feature of Marcionism, it is straining the point only a little to say that among Christians today there are many virtual Marcionites. - Anchor Bible Dictionary, 4:516.


Naturally, every scholar must have a speciality, which requires one to focuse on a narrow thematic area to the exclusion of others.

I just don't want to see the other half of the Bible (or 70% if we're going by volume/pages) given short schrift in BW, hence my OT rallying cry.

Thanks for the OT support John Henry.:)

JAMiller
02-18-2006, 03:32 PM
Per Ben's counsel, I too would like to add my voice to those here who would like to see a NW Semitic Inscriptions database add-on. I've been using it extensively, and have found that some of the in-print grammars (mostly Gogel) lack a quick concordance that a computerized database would quite easily facilitate. I'm not a Mac person, so Accordance is out.

I've enjoyed your discussions about the feasibility of such a project, and I'd like to assist in any way that I can in order to realize such a database. For me, NW Sem. Inscriptions are so much fun, and so much more applicable to OT study than most folks think (Ketef Hinnom inscriptions especially!).

Please contact me if I can assist in any way.

I would love to see the NW Semitic Inscriptions included as a database add-on as well.

jakemccarty
02-21-2006, 02:28 PM
Simply for the sake of keeping the importance of the study of the Old Testament in our minds, I wanted to resurrect (thinking of course of Ez 37!) it's importance for the umpteenth time.

So far it sounds like there are 5 people interested in seeing NW inscriptions and Jastrow used in BW's. Any more?

Also, I have a question for the people who tend to work in NT. While it may sound a little pointed, I don't mean it to be.

1. Would you like to see an even balance in terms of resources between OT and NT?
2. Do you use Hebrew regularly? Do you feel like you learned it well enough and kept it up enough to generally get through most prose (like a 1 year student can do with Mark in Greek?).
3. Do you think the study of the Old Testament has any merits independent of simply reading it with a New Testament lens. Let me be clear: I understand the importance of theological reading, but do you think that the Old Testament is interesting enough that you would like to understand what it is saying for fun and because of your interest in its history like you would follow rankings of college football (unless of course you actually read the rankings "christologically" or "theologically"--which I'm assuming you don't). Please don't misunderstand this point and launch into a theological explanation about how the OT ought to be read for the Church.

PS: Why ask these questions--I think it will provide clarification of why some of these most important resources (which are already available in computer format or free) were not made available even though I've been asking for them for a long, long time. Maybe they are the lowest priority and will continue to stay that way in which case I'll throw my vote in with New Testament resources I'd like to see.

Michael Hanel
02-21-2006, 02:54 PM
Also, I have a question for the people who tend to work in NT. While it may sound a little pointed, I don't mean it to be.

1. Would you like to see an even balance in terms of resources between OT and NT?
2. Do you use Hebrew regularly? Do you feel like you learned it well enough and kept it up enough to generally get through most prose (like a 1 year student can do with Mark in Greek?).
3. Do you think the study of the Old Testament has any merits independent of simply reading it with a New Testament lens. Let me be clear: I understand the importance of theological reading, but do you think that the Old Testament is interesting enough that you would like to understand what it is saying for fun and because of your interest in its history like you would follow rankings of college football (unless of course you actually read the rankings "christologically" or "theologically"--which I'm assuming you don't). Please don't misunderstand this point and launch into a theological explanation about how the OT ought to be read for the Church.


I do not at all think these are wrong or bad questions to ask, but I think at this point, you may wish to carry this discussion over into the Non-BW Forums part. It is one thing to request resourcest BW lacks, it is quite another to answer these questions and describe their implications.

Stefan Green
02-21-2006, 03:22 PM
Yes, I would like see to more of a balance between OT and NT resources in 7.0. I have understood however that BibleWorks have sought licences for OT resources, but have not manages to get them yet. The staff of BibleWorks are probably doing what they can to meet our needs, as long as they can stay true to their vision with the program.

Stefan Green
Phd student in Old Testament Exegesis.
Åbo Akademi

jakemccarty
02-21-2006, 03:28 PM
Fair point. Perhaps I was unclear though. I'm just wondering if there's enough interest/background amongst BW users for NW inscriptions (and Jastrow) to even be a profitable tool? (Or look at it this way: my Greek training is minimal and I can't even read Philo--he's way too tough for me!) That's what I was trying to get at and to hopefully avoid any theological discussion.

Do you think asking if NW Inscriptions and (and even a dictionary of Targumic Aramaic) would be something that would ultimately be profitable, even to lovers of Greek, is a good question? I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that it's profit could be measured by interest and background, perhaps making the question to direct. So let's leave out the directness and ask: would this be a good tool for everyone or just us OT wannabees? I guess Ben is exempt from the category since he just passed his comps at Chicago--that hardly qualifies as wannabee status! :)

I apologize for my ambiguity.

Michael Hanel
02-21-2006, 03:47 PM
Do you think asking if NW Inscriptions and (and even a dictionary of Targumic Aramaic) would be something that would ultimately be profitable, even to lovers of Greek, is a good question? I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that it's profit could be measured by interest and background, perhaps making the question to direct. So let's leave out the directness and ask: would this be a good tool for everyone or just us OT wannabees? I guess Ben is exempt from the category since he just passed his comps at Chicago--that hardly qualifies as wannabee status! :)

I apologize for my ambiguity.
Let's see if I can answer it neutrally ;) More (assuming it is quality) is always better :) I think since there are competing programs out there, the best BW can do is continue to keep up with other software programs. In some ways BW is ahead (with some features and resources no other programs have) and as this thread has noted there are also areas where BW is still behind. Most of these areas I assume are rather sticky. I would think the better strategy for getting more stuff in BibleWorks would not be this one, but to find the publishing companies or whoever it is that holds copyright on these varied materials and make sure that they are favorable to licensing their materials not just to BibleWorks, but to all Bible software programs.

I do however realize that the market for NW inscriptions is fairly small (assuming you mean using languages other than Hebrew and Aramaic. You're likely not going to run into someone who knows Ugaritic unless you are buried in the Near East Dept at a major university). I recognize your interest is primarily in OT materials especially because you are more familiar with Hebrew or Aramaic. I think that's why you see the "bias" in what is available in BW. That is, of those who use languages, more people use (are knowledgeable in?) Greek than Hebrew.

I guess my final opinion is that BW has done a good job of keeping up with other Bible software in regards to Hebrew, but I think all platforms out there do have a bias toward Greek.

(As an aside, I think the only reason Accordance has more Hebrew or would be more of an exception is that I seem to remember that they sell their product also as a Jewish Bible software program, which BW has never marketed itself as)

Stefan Green
02-22-2006, 03:31 PM
I would like to suggest following resources for biblical aramaic:

Greensphan, Frederick E. An Introduction to Aramaic, 2nd edition, SBL.
Rosenthal, Franz. A Grammar of Biblical Aramaic, 6th edition, Harrassowitz Verlag.

An Introduction to Aramaic are already in digital format in Libronix, but would be great to have, together with Futato, also in BibleWorks.

Stefan Green

jfalter0
02-02-2008, 07:50 PM
I would like to see Ancient Near Eastern Texts Related to the Study of the Old Testament (ANET), and its companion publication Ancient Near Eastern Pictures (ANEP), as part of future versions of BW.

And, as I have said elsewhere, I would desperately like to see a native version of BW for Linux and Mac. (Use Qt, GTK, Wine, whatever is necessary to run BW natively on multiple platforms.)

Peace!
Jeff Falter