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cmyktaylor
02-08-2006, 03:51 PM
Am I missing something, or is there a glaring omission in BW7? I am not a fan of the translation, but I would like to have all major modern versions in my Bible software.

Mark Eddy
02-08-2006, 04:37 PM
You are correct. TNIV isn't in BW7. Since it's a new translation, I'm sure it would add to the cost of the package, something BW doesn't like to do unless it has to.
NIV wasn't in the earliest numbers of BW because of their copyright/cost requirements. When it was first made available in BW, it was for an additional price. It only became part of the standard package a few years later.
Add to that the furor in World magazine about how TNIV came to be, and I can see a few reasons why it might not yet be in BW. But if enough people request it, the people at BW are always ready to see what they can do.
In Christ,
Mark Eddy

MBushell
02-09-2006, 08:44 PM
We were unable to come to terms with Zondervan on royalty. It is our policy not to sell Bible versions as modules so we have to absorb the royalties. We already pay very high royalties for the NIV, much higher than any other version, and could not justify paying what they wanted for the TNIV, especially when so few of our users wanted it. We hope that Zondervan will change its mind.

Mike

kpurcell
02-14-2006, 06:50 PM
We hope that Zondervan will change its mind.

Don't hold your breath. This is one more reason why I don't bother with NIV and never recommend it to anyone! Z is a business that happens to sell Christian products.

Gontroppo
02-14-2006, 11:34 PM
Zondervan does charge for the use of the NIV and TNIV, but you can access both freely http://www.tniv.info/bible/index.php online, which is better than nothing. And you do get proper formatting. :)

David McKay
www.davidmckay.info (http://www.davidmckay.info)

cmyktaylor
02-15-2006, 08:32 PM
David,

Please send me your text file for the TNIV. It's not fair that you've got it on your system and I don't. Zondervan won't mind. They offer it for free on their internet site.

Michael Hanel
02-15-2006, 10:36 PM
David,

Please send me your text file for the TNIV. It's not fair that you've got it on your system and I don't. Zondervan won't mind. They offer it for free on their internet site.

Unless I'm misunderstanding David, he's not saying he HAS TNIV loaded into BW, he's saying even though one can't get in BibleWorks because of the hassle w Zondervan, it is available online for those who are die-hards. If a user chose to make TNIV fit into BW that would be an individual concern, but the TNIV is a copyrighted text and any one who is spreading it against Zondervan's wishes could potentially get sued, so if someone is doing this, email one another, don't use the forums.

Bennett B. Wethered
02-15-2006, 11:19 PM
If a user chose to make TNIV fit into BW that would be an individual concern, but the TNIV is a copyrighted text and any one who is spreading it against Zondervan's wishes could potentially get sued, so if someone is doing this, email one another, don't use the forums.

Brothers, using the property (the TNIV translation) of another (Zondervan) without paying for it or their permission is THEFT. It goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) that this falls under those things referred to by the command, "You shall not steal." (Exo. 20.15, Deut. 5.19). Leviticus 19.11 helpfully fleshes this theme out, by saying,

"You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another." Whether Zondervan is seeking too much compensation for the use of the TNIV is beside the point; as their product [yes, Scripture, God's Word, belongs to all, and He has made it available to all; I'm referring here to but one translation] , it is theirs to do with as they will. While we might wish to have the TNIV in BW, we are not presently legally able to do so. And, as not legally able, we would be disobedient to our Lord to seek to do an end-run around its omission.

I carry no brief for Zondervan. Except for insights from its translators, I have no interest in the TNIV, due to its use of the gender-inclusive/neutral approach to pronoun (mis)translation. I also think that its record of 'working' with the people from World magazine and CBMW, among others, was, how you say, not what it might have been.

Nonetheless, it is their product, not ours, and we must not take what is not ours. If we love Him, we will obey His commandments.

pingpongjedi
02-15-2006, 11:25 PM
Bennett,

That is very well-said, not just for this particular topic, but in the broader context of the software and digital media rights. It may not be popular, but you have spoken well.

RS

Gontroppo
02-16-2006, 04:03 PM
Hi.
I have pdfs of the TNIV NT and whole bible which were freely distributed on the Zondervan site.
But I usually go to the site to access an electronic TNIV.

I can't agree with what was said about Zondervan and the World magazine and the CBMW. I think the Zondervan folk were forced into an awkard situation by those who made them promise to never alter the NIV. This was a most unfair demand, and the Zondervan people made a foolish promise. [And of course they are still distributing the NIV in the form it was in when the demand was made.]

I'm of the opinion that Jephthah should have eaten humble pie and admitted his foolish mistake in making a rash vow, if you get my drift.

I'm in the process of reading the bible through in the TNIV version. Did the NT in a Read the Bible through in 91 days plan from a minister in the Blue Mountains of NSW, and am mow reading through the OT and am pondering Numbers at the moment. I'm finding the TNIV to be a helpful update to the NIV.

Quite a lot of what is said about the TNIV is simply untrue, but, occasionally, there is a little political correctness, but not nearly as much as has been claimed, and, has been said many tmims previously, it is no different from the NRSV or NLT in that regard.

I thank God for all kinds of faithful translations. We English speakers and readers are incredibly blessed.

David McKay :cool:

Columcille
02-16-2006, 07:01 PM
Gontroppo,

Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way. I haven't spent a great deal of time with the TNIV, but I have used it for some study and personal reading and I don't have a big problem with their translation approach. It might could be said that they went too far with making certain pronouns gender neutral, but they didn't do anything not done in every modern translation. Even the ESV, which is often loved by vocal opponents of the TNIV, has a number of places where a masculine pronoun is translated in a more gender neutral sense. Most people recognize that the masculine Greek pronoun was often used as ours - as the gender neutral term. It's just the product of our times that the masculine pronoun is no longer as acceptable to carry a gender neutral idea. That issue is a different discussion.

The TNIV does not sacrifice the message of the Bible. Every translation has passages I think could have been done better, and the TNIV is no exception. But I have not found a single place in the TNIV that I felt distorted the truth of Scripture. The uproar about the translation has had me somewhat confused.

Background on me, I've spent 4 semesters studying Koine Greek as an undergraduate, 3 semesters in seminary, and general Greek usage in my own study. My Hebrew is a bit non-existent so any comparisons I've done between the TNIV and the original languages have been in the Greek.

Bennett B. Wethered
02-16-2006, 09:22 PM
As I said, the purpose of my post was to dissuade anyone from using or making available the TNIV (or any other non licensed work), for use in BW via the Version Database Compiler.

Obviously, my comments about the translation philosophy/approach used in the TNIV (as also the NRSV & NLT) has prompted references to the quality, appropriateness, or accuracy of that translation.
- - As resources in looking at the issues involved, I recommend http://www.genderneutralbibles.com/ (http://www.genderneutralbibles.com/) (as well as http://www.keptthefaith.org/ (http://www.keptthefaith.org/) ), from which one can read many links to articles that detail, verse-by-verse (see especially the "Comparative verse list" under "The Text," on the latter site for this), example-by-example, instances where they question the translation choices made by the translators of the TNIV, NRSV, and NLT. I encourage any who are interested to read through the various articles (by scholars with Hebrew and Greek language background) on this topic.

Columcille
02-16-2006, 10:50 PM
I confess I didn't do a careful reading but a very quick scan, and those websites look like more of the same old argument made against the TNIV without honest demonstration that the TNIV changes biblical meaning and intent. I really have struggled to try and understand why people have been so aggressive in attacking the TNIV while defending other translations which engage in the exact same approach with many pronouns.

Also, using the term "gender neutral Bible" is itself somewhat dishonest and misleading. The TNIV is not a gender neutral Bible. In the vast majority of references where a gender pronoun is used in the original language, a gender pronoun is used in the translation. In those instances where it is clear that the Biblical meaning applies to both men and women, the TNIV uses a gender neutral translation.

I think we evangelicals too often look for things to fight about, and when there's nothing better going on we invent battles. The TNIV debate strikes me as one of those cases.

ingosorke
02-16-2006, 10:56 PM
The TNIV discussion should probably move to the non-BW discussion.

Out of fairness to the translation, the TNIV is only 7% different from the NIV, and most changes have nothing to do with gender. Those changes actually lean towards being more "literal" than dynamic-equivalent (i.e., Rev 14:4). Incidentally, no English translation retains the Greek "mouth to mouth" in 3 Jn 1:14; they all translate "face-to-face". And curiously the KJV translated Mt 5:9 400 years ago with "children" but changed to "sons" in the NKJV.

If for no other reason the TNIV would be nice to have for comparative reasons (with the NIV), to see trends in translation technique etc.

I always considered BW more of a technical tool than a philosophical platform . . .:)

For the other side of the coin, dig around in www.tniv.info (http://www.tniv.info) -- and my main English translation is the ESV!

Happy comparing,

Ingo Sorke
work: Southwestern Adventist University
study: Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
breathe: Family

Columcille
02-16-2006, 11:16 PM
The TNIV discussion should probably move to the non-BW discussion.
...
I always considered BW more of a technical tool than a philosophical platform . . .:)


Quite true, I'll say no more on the merits of the TNIV. :) Easy to say now, but can I keep my mouth shut when others have posted...? ~cue mystery music~

Bennett B. Wethered
02-16-2006, 11:20 PM
The TNIV discussion should probably move to the non-BW discussion......

If for no other reason the TNIV would be nice to have for comparative reasons (with the NIV), to see trends in translation technique etc.....

I always considered BW more of a technical tool than a philosophical platform . . .:)

Happy comparing,
Ingo Sorke


Yes, I'd also love to have the TNIV, for comparative purposes, but especially if it could come with some of the translator's notes that we have in the NET Bible.

Yes, this aspect of any TNIV discussion should now more properly be on the "non BibleWorks discussion" part of the Forum. My only desire in citing those websites was to make them, as resources (and I do see them as substantive), known to others who may not previously been aware of the information, examples, and perspective they present. Having done so, I need say no more on the subject.

cmyktaylor
02-17-2006, 04:15 PM
Brothers,

You miss the point. This is a glaring omission. The TNIV markets itself as the Bible for our generation. I believe Bibleworks is one the best Bible study tools of our generation. How can such a sharp tool be missing such a key part?

The answer from the Bibleworks staff is devastating. Zondervan has priced them out of the market. Not only that; they almost did the same with the NIV. Has Zondervan no shame? Should they not freely offer this version to BW as they do on their website?

I say this partly to my own family’s shame. Before he died, I asked my grandfather (KNT) to offer The Living Bible to Bibleworks so we could all use it. I love being able to study the history of the paraphrase by looking at the difference between it and its offspring (NLT 1.0 – NLT 2.0). He passed on my desire to his staff at Tyndale. They rebuffed him. I never did ask if they asked for too high of a royalty or if they just didn’t want it published anymore, but the result is the same.

I understand the need to make a return on your investment, but please, be reasonable.

As to my request for the TNIV from David, it was satirical. My point was that if it is freely offered on their website, then surely we should all have free access to it via Bibleworks.

Indeed, I do have The Living Bible on Bibleworks, but as it is illegal for me to freely give it to another, I can not, nor have I, passed it on to any others. Though, if it is any consolation, I believe it is available for free on a website somewhere.

rkastens
03-29-2007, 09:50 AM
I know BW is does not like to make Bible translations available as an add on for sale, but it seems to me that if a publisher is charging a significant price for a new translation, then offering it as an add on is the way to go. That way individual users can determine if it is worth it for them to spend the extra money to have it or not. Later, when the cost becomes more manageable, BW can then simply make it available in their base package. I would love to have the TNIV and I'd be willing to pay a little more for it.

For all the knocks on Zondervan, I seriously doubt other Christian publishers are much different. (Although Zondervan may be the worst, I don't know.) In the end, the Christian publishing business is still a business. Christians received their grace from God for free and we typically expect everything else for free as well.

Ron

general487
03-30-2007, 11:45 PM
First post!

I for one am a huge admirer of what you guys are doing here at BibleWorks. I have extensively compared other software, and the "bang for the buck" is the only reason I can even make use of the wonderful product (struggling Master's student).

For me, the decision to wait on the TNIV is a smart one if it means higher costs. It keeps BibleWorks in my price range, and I still have a gazillion other modern translations to compare. Going to the website when I need to is no big deal.

Keep up the good work!

theborins
09-10-2007, 06:53 PM
the TNIV is being used in more and more churches. I love BW, but believe, as others have voiced, that it's a glaring omission in what is otherwise such a thorough tool.

SCSaunders
09-10-2007, 07:07 PM
I use this translation with the 1st and 2nd graders I teach. It works perfectly for their moving-from-pictures-to-actual-words level of reading.

Should Zondervan lower the royalty, I would love to see this available in BW.

In the meantime, paperback versions are very inexpensive. I'm fortunate enough to volunteer for a SS department that invested in a bunch.

Also, Olive Tree has a very inexpensive d/l of this translation.

SCSaunders
09-11-2007, 08:09 AM
I use this translation with the 1st and 2nd graders I teach. It works perfectly for their moving-from-pictures-to-actual-words level of reading.

Should Zondervan lower the royalty, I would love to see this available in BW.

In the meantime, paperback versions are very inexpensive. I'm fortunate enough to volunteer for a SS department that invested in a bunch.

Also, Olive Tree has a very inexpensive d/l of this translation.My bad. I thought we were talking about the NIrV. Off by one letter.

So close ....
http://i11.tinypic.com/63l2xjb.jpg