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Latemarch
12-09-2005, 09:28 AM
There are paragraphs indicated in my printed NASB, NIV and NKJ but they do not appear in the Bibleworks versions on my computer.
Do I not have some option not turned on or are they not in the database?

Thanks.

Michael Hanel
12-09-2005, 09:44 AM
There are no paragraph markers in BW, nor to my knowledge any immediate plans to add them. When BW gets the text from the publishers it is without that stuff and so even if it were possible to add them, they would all have to be gone through by hand.

Gontroppo
12-09-2005, 04:18 PM
For those of us who do not own some of the print versions in BibleWorks, paragraph markers would be a great boon.

David McKay
www.davidmckay.info:p

jdarlack
12-11-2005, 12:11 AM
I agree whole heartedly. It is inaccurate to represent a translation without paragraph or poetical markers. While the original text may have not had "paragraph marks" (it did not have chapters or verses either), the translators of various versions put a lot of thought into where they divided the flow of thought in Scripture. (Some gave more thought to it than others...I'd venture to guess.) I think that these paragraph markers are not just "icing on the cake" but actually a part of the "cake" of translation.

pastor-steve
12-11-2005, 02:02 AM
I agree!

Paragraph breaks and poetry formatting in English versions and italics in the Greek for direct quotations from the OT are wonderful features from the paper versions that we currently have to live without in BW.

I wonder whether the texts arrive without paragraph breaks though, since several competing products have them. (I know they're available in NET.) We've been told in the past that BibleWorks was intially designed to work with one verse at a time. In that case, a paragraph mark would almost never be useful. Maybe that's why they're not there? It would definitely be one more step toward making verse range and browse modes more useful.

I'm pretty happy with BW 6 (especially with the settign to remember verse ranges), but I would upgrade to BW 7 for paragraph and poetry formatting. (Italics in Greek would make me really happy! ;))

Steve

Ruben Gomez
12-11-2005, 03:31 AM
I wonder whether the texts arrive without paragraph breaks though, since several competing products have them.
The answer is yes and no. I have seen quite a few raw texts provided by different publishers, and some Bibles include paragraph information, while others do not. Generally speaking, many of the newer versions do.

Hope this helps.

Rubén Gómez

pastor-steve
12-11-2005, 03:43 AM
Thanks, Rubén. I wonder if those other companies had to type in the paragraphs and formatting... What an unpleasant job. :confused:

Maybe we can just borrow it from Bible Gateway ;)

Steve

Ruben Gomez
12-11-2005, 08:38 AM
Thanks, Rubén. I wonder if those other companies had to type in the paragraphs and formatting... What an unpleasant job. :confused:
Steve

Not really. Keep in mind that the text and layout of recent Bible versions (say, HCSB or NET) are computer-based from start to finish. :)

Best,

Rubén Gómez

Dan Phillips
12-11-2005, 01:09 PM
I quite agree, and am pleasantly surprised at how much other agreement you've received. I might have expected a dozen or two replies telling you that paragraph and poetry marks are for sissies, BW is perfect just as it is, and it's asking too much to asking busy programmers to change it. I might also have expected suggestions that you should just look them all up and put them in the text editor... when it isn't crashing. It's nice that we have such relative unanimity on this.

< /ms >

cfgattis
12-28-2005, 08:06 AM
Like everyone else, I miss the paragraph markings. Perhaps they were not as useful in the original languages, but they are essential for understanding in English. Imagine doing away with several letters of an ancient language or taking away one or two verb tenses and see how the language would be crippled. Losing paragraph and poetry divisions in English cripples our language in the same way.

Studying a passage verse by verse is helpful, but passages reveal their true meaning when seen in complete context. Actually, the better one can grasp the whole context of the passage the better one really understands the particular verse. Not having these divisions in the English translations hinders the contextual understanding of the passage. The other Bible program I use keeps the formating supplied by the different versions, and you can even choose to copy them with or without formating. I assume they come with the formating from the publishers since the divisions are the same as they are in my print versions. Perhaps BW will consider adding the formating in BW7.

Joshua Luna
12-29-2005, 03:15 AM
This is a great idea.

Another idea: I recently got a Chronological Bible and one thing I really like is that they group the text in small sections based on theme/content. It breaks the text up into logical sub-chapters. I know BW already has the outline/headings, maybe this could be used to browse the chunks of text it represents?

Also, on the Poetry: I would love a Bible that breaks up the chiastic structure of the text.

Actually a Bible, a print one, that was totally dedicated to form would be nice. A study Bible, but text-oriented. e.g. Genesis 1 can be broken up a couple ways. First there is some basic poetry here and there. On the side of form structure you have 3 days of forming and 3 days of filling. You also have the covenant structure (Preamble, Historical Prologue, Stipulations, Blessings/Cursings, Witnesses, statement concerning the document) which Gen 1-2 seems to follow. Having this information in a text would be nice; and with the main text formatted in regards to chiastic structure or the like.

A Bible that even just did the chiastic / poetic structure without the additional notes would be great. The parallelism of the Bible is pretty amazing--and informative--at times. A good example of Chiasmus is in Amos 9:1-4



And I saw Yahweh standing by the alter,
And he said,

A Strike the tops of the pillars so that the thresholds shake.
Bring them down on the heads of all the people;

B those who are left I will kill with the sword.

C Not one will get away,
none will escape.

D Though they dig down to the depths of the grave,
from there my hand will take them.

E Though they climb up to the heavens,
from there I will bring them down.

E' Though they hide themselves on the top of Carmel,
there I will hunt them down and seize them.

D' Though they hide from me at the bottom of the sea,
there I will command the serpent to bite them.

C' Though they are driven into exile by their enemies,

B' there I will command the sword to slay them.

A' I will fix my eyes upon them for evil and not for good."


It may be very difficult to get something like this into BibleWorks because there are no Bibles that do this (to my knowledge... if there are let me know!). This information is usually tucked away in an academic commentary or books specializing on Biblical Poetry. Which is too bad IMO as it makes the poetry very enjoyable!

cfgattis
12-29-2005, 07:56 AM
It would be very helpful to have the text grouped like your Chronological Bible or to be able to group the text according to its chaistic structure. I suppose we could do that ourselves in the notes section of the text, but to be able to turn those things on and off, perhaps in a separate, maybe even a floating, results window would be so helpful. It could be set up by the programer according to a particular design, but with the ability to edit it like the timeline.

hudsonhauck
03-16-2007, 11:12 PM
Are there any plans to do this...? I see the last post was quite some time ago. Paragraph markers would be extremely useful. It is a pain to have to open up Logos just to see where the translators put the paragraph breaks...

I'm pretty sure Accordance does this.... (*ahem!*)

Dale A. Brueggemann
03-19-2007, 09:32 AM
Also, on the Poetry: I would love a Bible that breaks up the chiastic structure of the text.... It may be very difficult to get something like this into BibleWorks because there are no Bibles that do this (to my knowledge... if there are let me know!). This information is usually tucked away in an academic commentary or books specializing on Biblical Poetry.

Of course commentaries that suggest chiastic arrangements of various texts provide potentially useful help by doing so; however, chiastic arrangements are frequently very subjective construals and don't really belong in the biblical texts themselves. Unlike the case with samek and pe unit indicators, and the rabbinic poetic scansion, we don't have any Masoretic chiastic notes, for example, let alone Mosaic or Davidic notes to that effect. So I would say this structuring is best left to commentaries rather than the BW biblical texts.

pastor-steve
03-20-2007, 02:13 AM
Yes, please!

It seems that most of the activity on this forum is from academics looking for better research tools. I suspect, however, that a majority of BW sales have been from working pastors wrestling with God's Word for teaching and preaching...

Anyway, as a pastor, my #1 feature request from BW would be paragraphs. In fact, I haven't seen a new BW feature that's of interest to me in a long time. No offense to those who need them, but most of the effort seems to be going into seemingly more and more esoteric tools. How about something for those of use trying to preach God's word every week? Give us something to get excited about like paragraph breaks or parallel version printing or new English versions - things that we can use for preaching, teaching, and leading Bible studies. I've bought four versions of BibleWorks now, but I'm starting to wonder if new versions will offer me what I need. Many people have asked for paragraphs for multiple years/versions.

Paragraphs would really help - I have to go to paper versions or Bible Gateway to get them right now. It just doesn't make sense to me.

--Steve

MBushell
03-20-2007, 03:27 PM
We have somewhere around 150 Bible version in BW now. In all but a few cases the text arrived from the publishers withour paragraph markers. That is changing of course as publishers get more sophisticated in dealing with electronic materials.

As a stopgap we will add the same paragraph markers to all versions, based on the markers in the RSV. This is not quite ideal in that it doesn't give you the editorial decisions made by each publisher but perhaps it will be a useful stopgap. The RSV is a good one because it has the Apocrypha and is pretty aggressive in marking paragraphs.

We'll go through our versions one by one and find out which ones have the info and which don't and slowly over time customize the marking process. We probably have the info from the major English versions (NAS, ESV, etc.) and will add those as soon as we can get the time.

The interime fix will be posted later today.

God bless,
Mike

MBushell
03-20-2007, 03:47 PM
Check the latest exe post. It has the fix I descrbed previously.
Mike

MBushell
03-21-2007, 01:35 AM
Now that I've played with the new paragraph markings for a while, I see a definite advantage to having one paragraph scheme across all versions. It is certainly helpful if you are working on a passage for a sermon and don't need to be distracted by variations in paragraph markings. Of course you do lose something by not having the differences between versions. I could easily make the paragraph markers toggleable. Any interest in this?
Mike

Michael Hanel
03-21-2007, 01:49 AM
Now that I've played with the new paragraph markings for a while, I see a definite advantage to having one paragraph scheme across all versions. It is certainly helpful if you are working on a passage for a sermon and don't need to be distracted by variations in paragraph markings. Of course you do lose something by not having the differences between versions. I could easily make the paragraph markers toggleable. Any interest in this?
Mike

If the question is should you use one paragraph scheme or let each Bible have its own, or BOTH, I would think the answer would be both :-P I haven't ever compared variations, but I would think if you're going to be able to get paragraphs in here, let each version have the paragraph marks it calls for, that's part of it's uniqueness.

Hopefully that's the answer to the question. In regard to being able to toggle paragraph markers, I suppose that is an option. As long as they don't interfere in searching I don't mind them being there, so I don't think I would toggle them off, but some people might...

vr8ce
03-21-2007, 02:16 AM
If the question is should you use one paragraph scheme or let each Bible have its own, or BOTH, I would think the answer would be both :-P I haven't ever compared variations, but I would think if you're going to be able to get paragraphs in here, let each version have the paragraph marks it calls for, that's part of it's uniqueness.

Hopefully that's the answer to the question. In regard to being able to toggle paragraph markers, I suppose that is an option. As long as they don't interfere in searching I don't mind them being there, so I don't think I would toggle them off, but some people might...
Agreed -- the different paragraph markers in NAU vs NLT is actually something I use in reading/lesson preparation, so they're the opposite of distracting for me.

Thank you very much for the addition of the markers -- it is excellent. I don't suppose there's a way we could get at least browse view (well, whatever the view is that only shows one version at a time) to show the text in paragraph form, i.e. without starting a new verse on a new line. I suspect that's a major change, but "you do not have because you do not ask". :)

Thanks again, Mike.

Vince

hudsonhauck
03-21-2007, 06:43 AM
Wow! Such quick response!

Much thanks and props to the BibleWorks staff for responding so quickly! I was looking into Accordance recently (mainly for NIDNTT) and I realized how expensive it is, and how much value BibleWorks really offers at a comparatively cheap cost.

So, thanks again BW!

-Matt

PS. I also vote for being able to see varying paragraph markers per version. And if we're going to have an option for "global", you might as well let us choose which scheme will be the global one. =)

Dale A. Brueggemann
03-21-2007, 06:56 AM
I could easily make the paragraph markers toggleable. Any interest in this?

I would definitely want and on/off toggle for the verse paragraph markers.

Also, if we're doing paragraphing, I would like to see it it conform to the edition--actually I would rather imagine that the publishers of the various versions would want/require that. If some want a global paragraphing scheme, that too could be nice.

hudsonhauck
03-21-2007, 07:09 AM
There already is a toggle for the paragraph markers.

Tools --> Options --> Browse Window Configuration Options --> "Show Paragraph Markers"

Michael Hanel
03-21-2007, 11:46 AM
Thank you very much for the addition of the markers -- it is excellent. I don't suppose there's a way we could get at least browse view (well, whatever the view is that only shows one version at a time) to show the text in paragraph form, i.e. without starting a new verse on a new line. I suspect that's a major change, but "you do not have because you do not ask". :)

Thanks again, Mike.

Vince

That probably requires a few more strokes of the programming pen, however, I would think it might be easy to edit the Export Text Option somehow so that it becomes possible to Export with Paragraphs an option. That would be cool.

However, until then, it is a relatively quick fix in Word to do a find and replace macro to go from paragraph marks to real paragraph form.

Do a Replace all for "&#182;" replaced with "^p ^t"

Dale A. Brueggemann
03-21-2007, 11:59 AM
There already is a toggle for the paragraph markers.
Tools --> Options --> Browse Window Configuration Options --> "Show Paragraph Markers"

But it would be nice if there were a keystroke to do that rather than diving a few layers into a menu. Like we do with Strongs notes, the cantillation, and so forth.

MBushell
03-21-2007, 03:18 PM
What I meant was to have each verse toggleable.

We do intend to add a specific paragraph markers for major versions, if the publishers will provide us with the info - oddly they don't always do so. It'll just take time. We are swamped and have very limited resources.
Mike

terogs
03-22-2007, 01:46 PM
Michael Hanel said:

However, until then, it is a relatively quick fix in Word to do a find and replace macro to go from paragraph marks to real paragraph form.

Do a Replace all for "¶" replaced with "^p ^t"

When copying to a word document with internal verse numbers, the ¶ paragraph marker shows up after the verse number. So, when I do a global search and replace, I'm left with dangling verse numbers at the end of the preceding paragraph.

Do you know of some way to avoid this? I've tried a recording a keyboard macro. It works but it's tedious.

Having paragraphs is a great feature!

Michael Hanel
03-23-2007, 06:14 PM
Michael Hanel said:

However, until then, it is a relatively quick fix in Word to do a find and replace macro to go from paragraph marks to real paragraph form.

Do a Replace all for "¶" replaced with "^p ^t"

When copying to a word document with internal verse numbers, the ¶ paragraph marker shows up after the verse number. So, when I do a global search and replace, I'm left with dangling verse numbers at the end of the preceding paragraph.

Do you know of some way to avoid this? I've tried a recording a keyboard macro. It works but it's tedious.

Having paragraphs is a great feature!


I don't readily have a solution to this one. Perhaps someone else? I guess when I exported text I didn't include verse numbers, so I didn't even think about the paragraph/verse number issue.

pastor-steve
03-24-2007, 04:44 AM
I'm really looking forward to using this feature. THANK YOU! :cool:

I'd like to second the request for a way to export these to the clipboard as actual paragraph breaks if that's resonably done. That would make them even more useful! But let's end on the thank you! :)

--Steve

frdee
03-24-2007, 08:31 PM
This is definitely a great addition.

I will reiterate (as unnecessary as that is) the desire to see the different paragraph marks with at least the major versions - but especially with BNT (NA27). EG, Mark 1:7 begins a new, and very short, paragraph in NA27 which is not in the RSV. The differences aren't numerous, but there noticable.

Those with GNT4 at hand (mines in storage in Oz) can simply compare paragraph differences in the apparatus. It's about the only thing I miss in NA27 and would make a great addition to BW.

Greg Crawford
03-25-2007, 05:09 AM
As a stopgap we will add the same paragraph markers to all versions, based on the markers in the RSV. This is not quite ideal in that it doesn't give you the editorial decisions made by each publisher but perhaps it will be a useful stopgap. The RSV is a good one because it has the Apocrypha and is pretty aggressive in marking paragraphs.


I think it is a mistake to take punctuation and paragraphing from one English translation and apply it to another. Every Bible translation into English is an attempt to translate the meaning of a text in Hebrew, Aramaic or Koiné Greek into English. Punctuation and paragraphing are part of that attempt, for the original manuscripts often lack any form of punctuation and paragraphing. Indeed, the earliest Greek uncials usually have no punctuation; and words just run into each other with no spaces even between the words. Punctuation and paragraphing can change the meaning of a translation. For example, consider the sentence, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise”. Compare that with, “I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”. The same applies to paragraphing. In Ephesians 5:21 the author says, “Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ – wives to your husbands as to the Lord”. The absence of the verb from the second half of the sentence shows that it must be supplied from the first half, inextricably linking the first and second halves of the sentence. Plausibly, the subjection of wives to husbands is thus a particular case of a general submission of all Christians to each other. Now a new paragraph implies new subject matter. Separate the first and second halves of the same sentence by creating separate paragraphs of them and you have effectively changed the meaning of the words. Fair enough! That may well be the judgment of the translators. However, that judgment is expressed in the paragraphing. Take paragraphing from one translation and apply it to another and you have changed the nature of the translation. Of course, supplying the text of one’s translation without paragraphing is equally unacceptable.

Columcille
03-25-2007, 05:58 PM
Here's one method to mess with passages pasted into word that contain paragraph breaks. This method requires two Find and Replace steps.

First:
Open Find/Replace dialog
Click Use wildcards option
Click Ignore white-space characters option
For Find: [0-9]*¶
For Replace with: ^p^t^&

Second:
Open Find/Replace
No special options needed
For Find: ¶
For Replace: (leave empty)

That should do the formatting. I did this with Office 2007 but I assume these options are present with older versions.

My $.02 about the paragraph markings, I'm glad they're there and I'm glad I can turn them off. I'd like an easier way to toggle them on/off. When working with the text I'm not likely to want them, but when copying text to Word I'd like a quick way to toggle them on. It will be nice to see paragraph markings for the specific version, but using RSV markings in the meantime is nice and helpful (contra Greg :) )

Columcille
03-25-2007, 06:02 PM
One more quick note about Word, if you like a blank line between your paragraphs (which I usually prefer) then your Replace with string should be: ^p^p^t^&

Michael Hanel
03-25-2007, 11:15 PM
Here's one method to mess with passages pasted into word that contain paragraph breaks. This method requires two Find and Replace steps.

First:
Open Find/Replace dialog
Click Use wildcards option
Click Ignore white-space characters option
For Find: [0-9]*¶
For Replace with: ^p^t^&

Second:
Open Find/Replace
No special options needed
For Find: ¶
For Replace: (leave empty)

That should do the formatting. I did this with Office 2007 but I assume these options are present with older versions.


Thanks for the smarter macro option. What does the "^&" stand for? I'm running Office 2003 and there is no option that I see for "Ignore white-space characters." I copied Gen 1:1-30 and ran this and it did catch some of the paragraphs, but not others...

e.g. ¶ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. 6 ¶ And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. 9 ¶ And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.

Columcille
03-25-2007, 11:31 PM
^& tells it to copy back anything that the Find matched. This is what has it re-include the verse number and the paragraph mark - after it adds in the paragraph break.

Yours doesn't match because of the whitespace issue. I'll play with the find/replace some more so that it will match with whitespace, but since Word 2003 doesn't have ignore whitespace, I'm not sure if ^& is something Word 2003 will recognize...

Michael Hanel
03-25-2007, 11:38 PM
^& tells it to copy back anything that the Find matched. This is what has it re-include the verse number and the paragraph mark - after it adds in the paragraph break.

Yours doesn't match because of the whitespace issue. I'll play with the find/replace some more so that it will match with whitespace, but since Word 2003 doesn't have ignore whitespace, I'm not sure if ^& is something Word 2003 will recognize...


Word 2003 does support ^&, and I found the white space option is called ^w, so where does the ^w go in the expression?

Columcille
03-25-2007, 11:48 PM
Then Find should be something like [0-9]*^w*&#182; but I just tried - and should have originally suggested - simply doing [0-9]* *&#182; - note the space before the second *. This essentially ignores/allows the whitespace between the verse num and the paragraph mark.

So:
Find what: [0-9]* *&#182;
Replace with: ^p^p^t^&
Check Use Wildcards

Then:
Find what: &#182;
Replace with: (leave blank)

That should do it... maybe.

Ben Spackman
03-26-2007, 12:22 PM
I think it is a mistake to take punctuation and paragraphing from one English translation and apply it to another. Every Bible translation into English is an attempt to translate the meaning of a text in Hebrew, Aramaic or Koiné Greek into English. Punctuation and paragraphing are part of that attempt, for the original manuscripts often lack any form of punctuation and paragraphing. Indeed, the earliest Greek uncials usually have no punctuation;...

This may apply to the NT, but the paragraph markings (but not chapter/verse divisions) in the Hebrew Bible go back to Pre-NT days, at least in my recollection. Marc Brettler discusses it (with references) in his How to Read the Bible.

Glenn Weaver
03-27-2007, 10:11 AM
In a cursory investigation I did a long time ago, I noticed paragraph breaks in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls Biblical texts (Great Isaiah Scroll, I think), as well as in the NT of Codex Sinaiticus.

Glenn

Greg Crawford
03-27-2007, 10:03 PM
This may apply to the NT, but the paragraph markings (but not chapter/verse divisions) in the Hebrew Bible go back to Pre-NT days, at least in my recollection. Marc Brettler discusses it (with references) in his How to Read the Bible.

Paragraphing in the modern sense was indicated by “parashiyyot” in the Hebrew text – the last line was left blank after the last word of the preceding section of the Hebrew text. You can use BibleWorks7 to see this by downloading one of the manuscript resources. Take a look at Codex Aleppo (say folio 22v – Judges 2:22-23). According to Emmanuel Tov, this is more or less in agreement with proto-Masoretic texts found in Qumran. However, Tov continues, “Although the medieval manuscripts continue the tradition of the proto-Masoretic texts in Qumran in general, they often differ with regard to the indication of individual section breaks.” (Tov, E. Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible. 2nd ed.2001. Fortress Press.p.51). Obviously there is a difference amongst the Hebrew manuscripts of the proto-Masoretic and Masoretic Traditions in paragraphing in the modern sense. Furthermore, the use of perigrapha, paragrapha (from which we get the word paragraph) or antisigma, i.e. a sigma and reversed sigma from which we get the parenthesis marks, for which inverted nunim were used in the Hebrew, was meant to indicate not a paragraph in the modern sense, but a section which had been mislocated in the overall text, according to the judgment of the scribes. Paragraph markers and parentheses indicators were exegetical judgments of the scribes. My conclusion to this is that the application of paragraphing from one modern English translation to all other translations erases important information about exegetical judgments in individual manuscripts and translations. :)

pastor-steve
03-27-2007, 11:17 PM
Hi, all!

It doesn't look like there are line or paragraph markings for the Psalms. Is that something that would come with version-specific paragraph marks? Or would that be a different feature? Or did I miss something?

Thanks,

Steve

Matt Harmon
03-30-2007, 11:13 AM
I've noted the various fixes in Word listed here, but at some point it would be ideal to have an option in the copy center such as "remove paragraph markers" just like one can "remove verse numbers" etc.

wie
04-28-2008, 01:52 PM
The option flag is in the Browse Window Configuration.

yugu
05-10-2008, 01:31 PM
Hello,
Maybe I'm a bit late in this discussion and even in a different direction to some extent, but:
Me, personally, less interested in the Massoretic parshiy'yot paragraphing (in the HB text), nor am i looking for other paragraphing suggestions offered by publishers (would it be RSV or BHS).
Yet, it would be perfect if I could create the paragraphing of the text by myself and not in the Word processor, but during the browsing in BW itself! It may work like the colorizing: BW should create Paragraphing Scheme file, applicable on its parent version for which it was created. Thus the paragraphing could be easily created, toggled, changed, shared by/between users and so on. The Schemes can be based either on the existent printed version, or on the personal research of the user's community.
Any other suggestions/affirmations/controversies on the subject?
Thanks in advance,
Yuri.