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Rogerman
09-14-2005, 06:05 PM
I don't think I own a single Bible that doesn't have Jesus' words in red print, except my BibleWorks. I asked them about it and was told to either go through and highlight all His words in red, or ask here if anyone had already done that.

Sooooo, I'm asking.

Thanks,

rog

Gontroppo
09-14-2005, 06:53 PM
Hi Roger.
I don't understand why you want the words of Jesus in red. Are they more important than the words of others in the Scriptures?

Also, how do you determine whether it was Jesus speaking or others writing in passages like John 3?

When the ESV was published, Australian distributors got a special edition shipped here which did NOT include the words of Jesus in red.

To each his own, I spose!

David McKay
www.davidmckay.info (http://www.davidmckay.info)

Rogerman
09-14-2005, 09:20 PM
Oh, I don't know. Why do you suppose there are millions and millions published with Jesus' words in red? I guess I just thought someone much smarter than I thought it was a good idea, or served some purpose, or they wouldn't be out there.

vr8ce
09-14-2005, 10:43 PM
Oh, I don't know. Why do you suppose there are millions and millions published with Jesus' words in red? I guess I just thought someone much smarter than I thought it was a good idea, or served some purpose, or they wouldn't be out there.
Same reason there are millions and millions of Celine Dion CDs published -- people don't know any better. :)

Greg Crawford
09-15-2005, 01:47 AM
A synoptic comparison underlines the difficulty of identifying words as coming from Jesus rather than the Gospel author. The consistency with which words in any one Gospel are redacted in line with the Gospel author’s themes strongly suggests the Gospel author’s involvement in the words attributed to Jesus. Sometimes it is argued that the words may have been spoken on more than one occasion. However, when it comes to the Last Supper, this claim is difficult to maintain. In my opinion, this makes any “red letter” edition with such supposed distinctions dubious.

Dale A. Brueggemann
09-15-2005, 02:50 PM
I don't think I own a single Bible that doesn't have Jesus' words in red print, except my BibleWorks.

Maybe we could get the sure words in red, those about which there is some doubt in pink, and those that are doubtful in gray? Just joking, although it's been done.

Actually, I wouldn't like seeing that; I really don't like the idea of a canon within the canon that such a distinction implies.

Kevin Ahronson
09-16-2005, 02:05 PM
Surely if Christ's words in red is what the customer wants, then the option ought to be made available.

There are plenty of Bibles already produced in this format - this suggests to me that there must be a number of bible translators/scolars who support the practice.

Just because some of us don't want it, should we deny others the opportunity?

After all, I don't want the TNIV, but I bet its going to be in the next revision.

And I also seem to remember someone (ages ago) asking for the Message to be available in BW - I'd be forced to switch to Esword if that happened!!

We are all different, and so often our likes & dislikes can be a real puzzle to others

MrShep
09-26-2005, 04:37 PM
Kevin, very well put. Thank you.

Michael Hanel
09-26-2005, 05:36 PM
Hopefully you've been on the forums to read enough to know what's going on. There is always a difference between customer needs and wants and what a business can do and should do to make its product better. Let's say for the sake of argument that it takes 40 man hours to make a version highlight in red Jesus' words. Surely that can be done. Granted. However that means you're taking 40 man hours away from something else (the guys at BW aren't sitting around doing nothing!). Now since BW folks are actively working on version 7 and new features etc for that, would you want them to stop working on new features which greatly enhance BibleWorks? As for me and my house, I don't strongly care one way or the other about the red letters, it won't greatly effect my salvation either way. However, is the next future BW customer going to purchase BibleWorks because it has a new Septuagint Lexicon or because it has Jesus' words in Red? Frankly, I don't think the red letters is a strong selling point or a good feature. Let users highlight the text on their own and you guys can share it for FREE! No one is stopping you and in fact BibleWorks encourages users to do such activities. Plus if this is most important to you, look there is a way for it to happen, no one is stopping you and you don't even have to purchase anything new.

As far as Bible versions go, I think BW does an admirable job of acquiring the rights to these, but you must keep in mind that some copyrights are easier to get a hold of than others and the more versions BibleWorks has, the likelier it is for costs to go up to help pay for those copyrights....

MrShep
09-26-2005, 10:59 PM
BibleWorks is a very good tool / piece of software / resource, or whatever you want to call it. I develop software in a variety of different formats, so I fully understand the demands put on developers. There is always a priority list, and a compromise must be made somewhere.

With that said, like myself, there are many developers "out there" in the world and who may have hi-lighted all of Jesus's words within BibleWorks. I don't think it's too much to ask the "community".

I think, for the most part, BibleWorks has done a great job by allowing end users to add personal features like the above. This was a great idea for us and reduced the load on them.

As a community of end users, it would help us all if we allowed the developers time to focus on "the next big thing", and we share ways of getting the most out of the current version.
-----------------------------------------------
On another note--I don't know about you, but $300 is not cheap (maybe relatively speaking). But with the amount of end users vs. the cost of each product, there's got to be some profit--maybe enough to hire some more developers. I'm not asking BibleWorks to justify their cost, or itemize their overhead, but using the excuse that there are only 2 people writing the code isn't a good reason to deny end users from feature requests.

For a software product to succeed, the software development cycle requires continual improvement--otherwise someone else will develop to satisfy the markets needs. BibleWorks wants those requests.

At any rate, I think they have done a super job with what resources they have. The ability to search text, build customized queries, and modify/add to the program is what makes this tool worth it. I also have PC BibleSoft, e-Sword, and evaluated the Logos software. I like BibleWorks the most.

Happy BibleWorking!!!

In Christ.

Michael Hanel
09-26-2005, 11:48 PM
With that said, like myself, there are many developers "out there" in the world and who may have hi-lighted all of Jesus's words within BibleWorks. I don't think it's too much to ask the "community".


Like I said, this particular request, the red letter thing, is really a pretty easy task. All it requires is using the highlighting feature. The only real demand is that it is time-demanding. It isn't something that's easily automated and there is no little code you can write that would do it. That's why you're totally right this is best done by users, because developers have special software skills that are best used in other places, namely developing the software. However, if there are feature requests which you have, all you have to do is ask the BW folk and they'll usually do what they can do make it happen. That's the great thing, if there's something BW can do that would be more helpful to you, they try to get it done (notice that this is different than asking for more bible versions). Ultimately they are software people and they make searching and using the texts easier for us. They do obviously also open up new resources too, but again, like you said, there is always some level of balance between those two aspects


On another note--I don't know about you, but $300 is not cheap (maybe relatively speaking). But with the amount of end users vs. the cost of each product, there's got to be some profit--maybe enough to hire some more developers. I'm not asking BibleWorks to justify their cost, or itemize their overhead, but using the excuse that there are only 2 people writing the code isn't a good reason to deny end users from feature requests.

One can certainly argue this one, but as for me and my house, if you can show another program that can do what BibleWorks can and has the features that BibleWorks has for LESS than $300 please be my guest. Logos and Accordance, the two main rivals in my mind, can do similar things and may even be able to do some tasks better or have better resources, but ultimately, dollar for dollar, your $300 gets you more in BibleWorks than it would in either of those other two programs. And if it doesn't please point that out to me, because I am just another thrifty German at heart (no offense to Germans intended...)

MrShep
09-27-2005, 12:10 AM
Like I said, this particular request, the red letter thing, is really a pretty easy task. All it requires is using the highlighting feature.


Yes Sir, I agree. But in order for an end user to save precious time, it doesn't hurt to ask the community to provide something that's already been done.

I haven't done the highlight, so I can't provide the file. It looks like he'll have to highlight each and every one--then save it as a custom highlight.

in Christ.

vr8ce
09-30-2005, 12:56 PM
I'm not asking BibleWorks to justify their cost, or itemize their overhead, but using the excuse that there are only 2 people writing the code isn't a good reason to deny end users from feature requests.Nor was it done here. Every software company, whether there are 2 or 200 developers, has to establish *priorities*, based on what the users want to see and what can be done in the time allotted. So, in a choice between re-writing the editor and highlighting the words of Christ in red, the editor wins, because way more of us would rather have a new editor than have Mike devote resources to something we could do ourselves if we wanted it, which many/most of us don't (how's that for a run-on sentence?). The issue here is simply that *this* request isn't of sufficient priority to devote scarce resources to. Mike has already laid out some of the stuff coming in v7 (search the archives); the product is definitely improving, probably far more than most of us can imagine.

Vince

Michael Hanel
09-30-2005, 01:12 PM
maybe to bring conclusion to the matter. Maybe if those of you who want red letter stuff would volunteer or email one another and split up some of the gospels then it could be done rather than the continuing talk of it. I'm not sure if highlighting can be merged or if you'd have to start this out on one standard configuration file, but anyway, go for it and share it. it'll be helpful to all of your other compatriots who also would like this feature

swestfall
10-04-2005, 05:55 PM
I can't imagine why any serious student of the Bible would want the developers of BibleWorks to spend any time on producing a new version of an existing English translation that displays words attributed to Jesus in red, especially given that it would divert them from working on improvements to the software itself.

As has already been pointed out, the decision about which words are those of Jesus and which are those of the gospel writer is an interpretive, exegetical decision which in some contexts can be uncertain and about which people can honestly disagree. It is a decision better left to the commentaries than to translators (and certainly not to editors and publishers of original language versions). I don't want some unknown (or even known) persons imposing their "red letters" on the text that I'm using to study the Bible.

It could be argued that people got along fine without color-coded editions of the Bible for eighteen hundred years, and that would be true, but others could fairly retort that we got along without computer assistance too. While that's true, I for one am only interested in the kind of technological assistance in Bible study that does not impose interpretations on the text.

The desire for a red-letter text seems to be more appropriate for a plain electronic text version of the Bible that some might want for reading and devotional purposes than for Bible study software of the type that BibleWorks represents.

Steve Westfall

Dan Phillips
10-05-2005, 09:00 AM
Ditto, Stephen, only probably less nicely. Put time and effort elsewhere. Make a comprehensible GUI interface for searching.

MrShep
10-06-2005, 12:10 AM
2 Timothy 2:16 ta.j de. bebh,louj kenofwni,aj perii<staso\ evpi. plei/on ga.r proko,yousin avsebei,aj(

seadams
02-10-2007, 01:37 PM
Hello MrShep,

You mentioned you evaluated Logos...so as not to take this thread way off topic, I'll post a new thread asking you about how that went. I also evaluated both...and settled on both (scholar's edition). But knew that I'd be using Bibleworks 80% of the time. Please look for the new thread, thanks.

dhave
02-13-2007, 03:57 PM
So, who spoke the words of John 3:16, Jesus or John (the author, not the baptizer)? I think John, but all my red-letter Bibles disagree.

I'd rather have all the words of Scripture in the same color, since they're all God-breathed and since we can't always be sure who the speaker is.

Bennett B. Wethered
02-13-2007, 09:54 PM
While I both agree with those who don't like the 'canon within a canon' that red-lettering creates, and while I think, as a feature, it should be seen as rather far down a software developer's list......

.......this has already been offered as a 'plug-in' feature for the KJV translation. Someone, a while back (on the BibleWorks Forums, though I don't know who, or what post or thread), created a downloadable plug-in, that would show the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the KJV, in red.

If someone remembers where to find the thread & post, let our interested brother (and anyone else) know.

Adelphos
02-13-2007, 10:03 PM
.....this has already been offered as a 'plug-in' feature for the KJV translation. Someone, a while back (on the BibleWorks Forums, though I don't know who, or what post or thread), created a downloadable plug-in, that would show the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the KJV, in red.

That was me. It is a color file (.clr) and I believe Michael Hanel has it posted on the BW blog.

Bennett B. Wethered
02-13-2007, 10:22 PM
Thanks, Scott.

Roger (and anyone else who wants the red), go to http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/files.html (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/files.html) ; go down to the entry for April 27, 2006, entitled Color Files, and voilà, you've got it! :D

Michael Hanel
02-13-2007, 10:47 PM
And if anyone else wants to do this for other versions, let me know and I can make those files available too. (that way everyone has a standard they can disagree with! ;)) Thanks to everyone who make contributions like this available to other users, we're richer for it!

Ken Miller
04-25-2007, 11:05 PM
Maybe we could get the sure words in red, those about which there is some doubt in pink, and those that are doubtful in gray? Just joking, although it's been done.

Actually, I wouldn't like seeing that; I really don't like the idea of a canon within the canon that such a distinction implies.

Millions of people, including me, like having Jesus' words in red to quickly spot a verse where Jesus is speaking. I've been reading the Bible for over 24 years by the way, and am in no way a 'Bible noob' in case anyone was wondering.

I personally think it is kind of a rip-off for someone to charge money for a Bible program and not even give an option as simple as a red letter version of the KJV, but maybe that's just me.

Ken Miller
04-25-2007, 11:51 PM
There is always a difference between customer needs and wants and what a business can do and should do to make its product better. Let's say for the sake of argument that it takes 40 man hours to make a version highlight in red Jesus' words. Surely that can be done.

If they think red letters aren't important options for millions who like them I'd say they aren't on top of customers needs, especially since there are many very good Bible software programs out there for free which do offer red letter options. Looks like if they're charging money for it they could even include both options, or one or the other at least.

I was disappointed at not having red letter KJV as an option, surprised really. Thanks to Adelphos for his red letter version, I'm glad someone saw the need to have one.

MBD
04-26-2007, 01:38 PM
I don't care.....as long as I can have YHWH's words in bold caps. I am not sure what to do about El Shaddai, etc.

Busdriver
06-06-2011, 03:50 PM
Here is a link to a thread on how to accomplish this: http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?1246-Christ-s-Words-In-Red-KJV

Dan Phillips
06-06-2011, 07:54 PM
I like my edition, with the words of God in black.

:cool:

Dale A. Brueggemann
06-07-2011, 01:51 PM
I like my edition, with the words of God in black.:cool:

Amen Dan. And I guess you wouldn't go for gray, pink, and so forth either ;o)

redtextchrist
07-20-2011, 03:16 PM
I have typed up the Jesus words in red. AND YES, they are much different from the rest of the bible. I have made the red text into handbooks
I don't think I own a single Bible that doesn't have Jesus' words in red print, except my BibleWorks. I asked them about it and was told to either go through and highlight all His words in red, or ask here if anyone had already done that.

Sooooo, I'm asking.

Thanks,

rog